I rest my case. smoke & mirrors and they got caught out. 
So much for the experts at Vipac.
So much for the experts at Vipac.
Yep,, Fridges Again ??
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condor22
Mike
Nightjar said:I rest my case. smoke & mirrors and they got caught out.
So much for the experts at Vipac.
Definition of an Expert; "A Drip under Pressure" An oldy, but relevant.
Nightjar and all,
I wouldn't be so quick to attribute the error to Vipac! Their expertise and professionalism is second to none - at least in this country and their integrity is rock solid. I know as I have used their services many times on complex Engineering activities that are far outside our local Engineering capabilities - and we're large and very good!
The fact that the error was detected (by Vipac, only on reviewing the published data) and corrected (without re-test) means that Vipac had the correct data in the first place. Their measurement capabilities are spot on.
Someone either fiddled the books during transmission of Vipac's reported data or an error was made during their data transmission up the chain.
Face it: the study was commissioned by an unknown, and the data was provided for publishing by an unknown to the paper who handled/checked it how? (3+ possible sources of error - deliberate or otherwise). Also, the published data did not specify the competitor brands - only Engel was named and shown to be the loser. Why was that?
So, look elsewhere for the villan (viz: competitor, distributor or re-seller). I'm saying that Vipac couldn't/wouldn't have made this error. Their solid reputation is what get's them work. Their internal review processes are ISO9001 qualified. It's a solid part of their bread and butter and they even work for Defence agencies.
Just wondering: Why did Waeco apologise for results from an independent test that was then published independently? Not so independent?
Great that Engel results were finally shown in true daylight!
PS: Engel fridge didn't arrive today Whilst the delivery time was stated as two days (from a reseller with the unit on sale), doesn't mean it won't take ten weeks to get into stores before delivery. Maybe I've been sucked in - my optimism?
I wouldn't be so quick to attribute the error to Vipac! Their expertise and professionalism is second to none - at least in this country and their integrity is rock solid. I know as I have used their services many times on complex Engineering activities that are far outside our local Engineering capabilities - and we're large and very good!
The fact that the error was detected (by Vipac, only on reviewing the published data) and corrected (without re-test) means that Vipac had the correct data in the first place. Their measurement capabilities are spot on.
Someone either fiddled the books during transmission of Vipac's reported data or an error was made during their data transmission up the chain.
Face it: the study was commissioned by an unknown, and the data was provided for publishing by an unknown to the paper who handled/checked it how? (3+ possible sources of error - deliberate or otherwise). Also, the published data did not specify the competitor brands - only Engel was named and shown to be the loser. Why was that?
So, look elsewhere for the villan (viz: competitor, distributor or re-seller). I'm saying that Vipac couldn't/wouldn't have made this error. Their solid reputation is what get's them work. Their internal review processes are ISO9001 qualified. It's a solid part of their bread and butter and they even work for Defence agencies.
Just wondering: Why did Waeco apologise for results from an independent test that was then published independently? Not so independent?
Great that Engel results were finally shown in true daylight!
PS: Engel fridge didn't arrive today
Whilst the delivery time was stated as two days (from a reseller with the unit on sale), doesn't mean it won't take ten weeks to get into stores before delivery. Maybe I've been sucked in - my optimism?
condor22
Mike
Having re read the attachment to my previous post, Waeco apologised, because they had published the incorrect figure provided, I would assume because it was in their own interests to do so. Companies are subject to false advertising regulations, including what they advertise about opposition manufacturers, even though provided by a 3rd party. I'm no legal expert on corporate law, but would imagine the apology would possibly negate future legal action by Engel.
There are obviously too many "unknowns" re responsibility, as stated above. However, I knew it was not possible to arrive at that figure, the Engel specs state 2.6A max, multiply that by 24 = 62.4 AH multiply by 12V = 748.8WH. Which is considerably less than the 956WH published.
That's simple math and assumes no thermostat cycling at all.
PS I believe that Australia Post now work on a 3 day min for normal delivery, longer in regional areas and parcel perhaps longer, so some dealers may need to update their delivery timings......
There are obviously too many "unknowns" re responsibility, as stated above. However, I knew it was not possible to arrive at that figure, the Engel specs state 2.6A max, multiply that by 24 = 62.4 AH multiply by 12V = 748.8WH. Which is considerably less than the 956WH published.
That's simple math and assumes no thermostat cycling at all.
PS I believe that Australia Post now work on a 3 day min for normal delivery, longer in regional areas and parcel perhaps longer, so some dealers may need to update their delivery timings......
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condor22 said:
I agree the whole thing does not make sense, how the hell can the leading fridge have the worst power consumption and models like National Luna which are supplied to NASA end up one of the lowest ranked fridges against the cheapest model made in china, National Lune have the most insulation of all the fridges yet it did not rank very high and yet the Temps in outer space is -260*C and when they come back in to the earths atmosphere it is a total opposite, So who ever wrote should lat off the Mushrooms or the Grog.
Well the people who wrote the review is ( Australian 4WD Action ) ( Fridge Comparo 2015 ) I have it in a PDF but the forum limit won't let me post it, If you PM me your Email I will send it to you, Ok.
The Engel Fridge slider I can get for $190 but the flaming ARB one is about $400+ which is total BS
john
Ridge Runner said:
Very simple, lies & deception mean nothing in this world if enough money is palmed. We the public read and think surveys looks realistic.
No disrespect to a member posting a report he had read stating Engel's do not cycle. This is a just a recent example of seeing and believing if he hadn't followed it up he would still be quoting incorrect information. Internet does have its advantages.
BTW: No association here with Engel other than owning two, one of which was bought in the early 80's and still used as a freezer.
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Nightjar said:Ridge Runner said:
Very simple, lies & deception mean nothing in this world if enough money is palmed. We the public read and think surveys looks realistic.
No disrespect to a member posting a report he had read stating Engel's do not cycle. This is a just a recent example of seeing and believing if he hadn't followed it up he would still be quoting incorrect information. Internet does have its advantages.
BTW: No association here with Engel other than owning two, one of which was bought in the early 80's and still used as a freezer.
Yep, The thing that burns my backside is that (WE) invest money and faith in these mags and then they go and post such garbage and claiming that because the use a GOV test centre that these are the facts, they also marked my fridge down saying it has plastic handles when in fact they are powder coated steel, And I really wanted the Engel and because of their BS I bought the ARB, Saying that luckily for me the ARB is on par with the Engel But I was going to pay over $2000 and buy the National Luna based on their report which means I would have been an extra $1200 in the hole by the time I had bought the cover and slider etc and that would of put me further behind, But luckily ARB is Australian too some I am glad about that and like I said they are on par with Engel, But to me Engel is like Drizabone or Akubra they are as Australian as you can get and that matters to me,
The thing that bugs me is these things are not cheap and if I had bought a lesser product I would have been really angry even more so because a TOP Australian 4X4 magazine Lied.
So I apologize to any one who was offended by ME posting their BS/Rubbish or what ever you wish to call it, But I was a fool for putting faith in to a company/magazine that I use to TRUST.
Sorry Guys, what more can I say,,, John
condor22
Mike
I've looked at the 4WD Action review (thanks Ridge Runner) the first thing I note is that these tests were done on;
ARB @ 47LT
ENGEL @ 40LT
IRONMAN @ 50LT
PRIMUS @ 45LT
POWERTECH @ 50LT
WAECO @ 50LT
As I mentioned in an earlier post there are significant size variations. If 40 lt is the nominal size for test, then why not use the ARB 35lt, the Ironman 40 lt, the Powertech 40 lt and the Waeco 41 lt. These sizes would then be much closer particularly for power consumption and number of cans that fit. I think Primus also have a 40lt.
The 4WD Action test is like comparing Apples with Oranges Even with the mistake, is it of interest? - Yes. Is it valid for a realistic comparison? - Not Really.
ARB @ 47LT
ENGEL @ 40LT
IRONMAN @ 50LT
PRIMUS @ 45LT
POWERTECH @ 50LT
WAECO @ 50LT
As I mentioned in an earlier post there are significant size variations. If 40 lt is the nominal size for test, then why not use the ARB 35lt, the Ironman 40 lt, the Powertech 40 lt and the Waeco 41 lt. These sizes would then be much closer particularly for power consumption and number of cans that fit. I think Primus also have a 40lt.
The 4WD Action test is like comparing Apples with Oranges
Even with the mistake, is it of interest? - Yes. Is it valid for a realistic comparison? - Not Really.- Joined
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condor22 said:I've looked at the 4WD Action review (thanks Ridge Runner) the first thing I note is that these tests were done on;
ARB @ 47LT
ENGEL @ 40LT
IRONMAN @ 50LT
PRIMUS @ 45LT
POWERTECH @ 50LT
WAECO @ 50LT
As I mentioned in an earlier post there are significant size variations. If 40 lt is the nominal size for test, then why not use the ARB 35lt, the Ironman 40 lt, the Powertech 40 lt and the Waeco 41 lt. These sizes would then be much closer particularly for power consumption and number of cans that fit. I think Primus also have a 40lt.
The 4WD Action test is like comparing Apples with Oranges
Actually you are right it is strange that they never matched the sizes better.
Hope I'm not hi-jacking this thread, but does anyone have any knowledge of the new Evakool Glacier range? I'm looking at the 71ltr dual zone. Yes I want an Engel.....but currently their dual zone units dont seem very impressive, the second zone only seems to cool from "leaked" cool air from the first compartment, unless I'm wrong, and the Evakool can be fridge/fridge, fridge/freezer or freezer/freezer, and at the moment can be had for a good price, just over $1000 with cover.
condor22
Mike
The Engel 40lt combi has 3 configurations - 17L Freezer/23L Fridge 22L Freezer/16L Fridge 40L Refrigerator only. Leaked air is not new and is still efficient. They do a bigger 57lt and a 75lt that split in a similar way.
If a portable fridge has a cooling condenser and a freezing condenser there are 2 systems operating from the compressor. I don't know what the Evacool will do and certainly won't say they are "less than impressive" but I will ask why you say that about the Engel immediately after saying you want one?
Engel are the "Rolls Royce" of portable fridges, I can't see them tarnishing their reputation with something less than their normal excellence.
Like I've said on other threads, it ends up being personal choice and buying the best you can afford. It's always the right choice, if you are happy with what you buy.
If a portable fridge has a cooling condenser and a freezing condenser there are 2 systems operating from the compressor. I don't know what the Evacool will do and certainly won't say they are "less than impressive" but I will ask why you say that about the Engel immediately after saying you want one?
Engel are the "Rolls Royce" of portable fridges, I can't see them tarnishing their reputation with something less than their normal excellence.
Like I've said on other threads, it ends up being personal choice and buying the best you can afford. It's always the right choice, if you are happy with what you buy.
Yes, agree Condor, we all have to consider the cost of items and available loose change and consider whether they are a short or long term investment.
Not wanting to bore you with repetitive information, BUT!
Checked with my mate today what his outlay has been up to his present 6th portable fridge in 20 years. Approximately AU$9600.00, none of them an Engel.
Outlay here for two portables in past 30+ years, $2700.00.
It is irrefutable if you want a fridge/freezer for the long ride, buy an Engel.
BTW: My "Old Yella" has a home sewn coat made from canvas, lined with an Onkaparinga blanket, cost from faded memory about $50.00?
Not wanting to bore you with repetitive information, BUT!
Checked with my mate today what his outlay has been up to his present 6th portable fridge in 20 years. Approximately AU$9600.00, none of them an Engel.
Outlay here for two portables in past 30+ years, $2700.00.
It is irrefutable if you want a fridge/freezer for the long ride, buy an Engel.
BTW: My "Old Yella" has a home sewn coat made from canvas, lined with an Onkaparinga blanket, cost from faded memory about $50.00?
Sorry perhaps I should have been clearer in my first post, I do realise that Engel has the best reputation, and that is why it would be my first choice, but it seems to me that having both compartments cooled individually should be more efficient and more controllable, than relying on one cooling plate for both. Maybe I am missing something in this, I am certainly no refrigeration engineer!
condor22
Mike
The Evacool Glacier 71lt specs give an average of 2.5AH running half fridge half freezer @ 32C, this equates to 720WH/24 hrs or 60AH. The first thing I would note here is that even with a 120AH AGM a solar input is a must for any extended camping. It does not give the max current draw when operating so it's difficult to know the % cycle rate.
I don't have any averages for the equivalent Engel MT80FCP 75 lt combi. But the specs state 4.2 A max, so if it were running 100% it would pull 100AH.
My gut feeling on an average day @ 25C these things cycle at about 50% so the AH go down to <50AH.
My experience is fridge only, not fridge freezer, but first I would email Engel to see if they can tell you. Or, search for some reviews.....
I did a search.............
5 min later - I just did a search and the Evacool is rated at 4.5AH (which is 0.3A more than the Engel) so the cycle rate is about 55% (so I was close).
If the Engel cycled at the same rate then it should average 2.3AH or about 55AH/24hrs. I don't think efficiency is much of a deciding factor.
The extra 11kg and twice the price might be of more importance to you. If I were in the market for such a huge fridge it would be budget first, weight (2 man lift), size (fit in the vehicle) that would be the drivers. even the Evacool is 31kg, then add up to another 60 odd kg for contents......
I don't have any averages for the equivalent Engel MT80FCP 75 lt combi. But the specs state 4.2 A max, so if it were running 100% it would pull 100AH.
My gut feeling on an average day @ 25C these things cycle at about 50% so the AH go down to <50AH.
My experience is fridge only, not fridge freezer, but first I would email Engel to see if they can tell you. Or, search for some reviews.....
I did a search.............
5 min later - I just did a search and the Evacool is rated at 4.5AH (which is 0.3A more than the Engel) so the cycle rate is about 55% (so I was close).
If the Engel cycled at the same rate then it should average 2.3AH or about 55AH/24hrs. I don't think efficiency is much of a deciding factor.
The extra 11kg and twice the price might be of more importance to you. If I were in the market for such a huge fridge it would be budget first, weight (2 man lift), size (fit in the vehicle) that would be the drivers. even the Evacool is 31kg, then add up to another 60 odd kg for contents......
condor22
Mike
Had another thought re Evacool 71lt v Engel 75lt. The Evacool is 31kg 805W x 475D x 514H the Engel 42kg, 790W x 490D x 561H.
So the Evacool is 15W bigger and 15D x 47H smaller than Engel which is 4lt more capacity, the sizes are similar.
So I can only assume that the extra 11kg on the Engel is structural i.e. thicker material, therefore better built.
Best price I've found on the Engel is $1,830, the Evacool $938.
Is the Engel worth the extra $? In my opinion - Yes. (I am biased based on personal experience)
Is there anything wrong with buying the Evakool? In my opinion - No, but remember, you get what you pay for.... (however there are mixed product reviews online, those with no problems are happy, those that have had problems were not happy with service or quality)
Do the research, make a decision, then spend......
So the Evacool is 15W bigger and 15D x 47H smaller than Engel which is 4lt more capacity, the sizes are similar.
So I can only assume that the extra 11kg on the Engel is structural i.e. thicker material, therefore better built.
Best price I've found on the Engel is $1,830, the Evacool $938.
Is the Engel worth the extra $? In my opinion - Yes. (I am biased based on personal experience)
Is there anything wrong with buying the Evakool? In my opinion - No, but remember, you get what you pay for.... (however there are mixed product reviews online, those with no problems are happy, those that have had problems were not happy with service or quality)
Do the research, make a decision, then spend......
Thanks very much for the info Condor22, a difficult choice! The Evakool has a metal clad body, but not lids, so that might account for some of the difference, and I did notice the handles do not look as solid, but at the same time, a big difference in cost! I will continue my research, and let you know which way I go.
Nigel
Nigel
condor22
Mike
Another option is to buy 2 separate fridge freezer units. Maybe a 40lt and a 30 lt, use one as a fridge and 1 as a freezer. Might cost more, will use more power overall, but a hellava lot easier to handle.....
Yes that is still an option, as I have a Ford Ranger Wildtrack, which has the "armadillo" type cover to the tub, and without putting some other cover on, the only unit that will fit under it (and only just!) is the 32L Engel, but again, a lot more cost!....well no decision is easy I guess!
