So I went highbanking today.....

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Guys I'm only new to the hobby and if I was approached by the powers that be and told I was doing the wrong thing I would struggle to argue my case with them due to fact that I'm only slowly learning the do's and don'ts, seems to be a few grey area's and a lot to know.

Would it be possible to put a document together for each state outlining the rules and laws and quoting the source of the information that we could carry on us, that way when approached we could present them with this document and ask them to point out where we are breaking the rules.

I'm sure if it was presented to them with the right attitude a positive outcome would be far more likely.
Just an idea
Mick
 
The problem there is half the time they don't seem to know what the do's and don'ts are either, as demonstrated by AussieChris's experience. Although in my experience the VIC officials are generally a bit more polite, but I've never dealt with fisheries down here, for all I know they're twits down here too. (no offence to anyone to anyone who works in fisheries and isn't a twit).

I'll leave it to people from NSW to illuminate you on their rules, but if you come down to VIC you need a miners right, You can only use non-mechanical equipment to dig eg. shovels and picks not jackhammers. There's no prescribed limitation on depth/extent but you have to fill it in afterwards and I have no doubt that if it's unsafe/ a public hazard they'll rip you a new one.Once you've got it out the ground you can use whatever means you wish to process it though.

As far as location goes, state forest is fine, as is private land (with permission of course). Stay out of National parks except in a few special cases (this is detailed on the enegry and earth website where you can buy your miners right) and any reserves signed as not for fossicking/prospecting. There's also a list of rivers and creeks, available both here somewhere and on the earth resources website, where you cant prospect or process any material. If you're not sure on a reserve or other spot then go and see the local DELWP office, they'll (hopefully :rolleyes: ) be able to tell you whether or not it's ok. Even they don't always seem to know and in this case I personally err to the side of caution.

Remember this is only for VIC, and doesn't apply in NSW. hopefully someone can elucidate the NSW rules as they currently stand for you.
 
Mickskin said:
Guys I'm only new to the hobby and if I was approached by the powers that be and told I was doing the wrong thing I would struggle to argue my case with them due to fact that I'm only slowly learning the do's and don'ts, seems to be a few grey area's and a lot to know.

Would it be possible to put a document together for each state outlining the rules and laws and quoting the source of the information that we could carry on us, that way when approached we could present them with this document and ask them to point out where we are breaking the rules.

I'm sure if it was presented to them with the right attitude a positive outcome would be far more likely.
Just an idea
Mick
i think wed all love such a document but the laws as they are current are far too ambiguous for such a thing.
 
bend said:
The problem there is half the time they don't seem to know what the do's and don'ts are either, as demonstrated by AussieChris's experience. Although in my experience the VIC officials are generally a bit more polite, but I've never dealt with fisheries down here, for all I know they're twits down here too. (no offence to anyone to anyone who works in fisheries and isn't a twit).

I'll leave it to people from NSW to illuminate you on their rules, but if you come down to VIC you need a miners right, You can only use non-mechanical equipment to dig eg. shovels and picks not jackhammers. There's no prescribed limitation on depth/extent but you have to fill it in afterwards and I have no doubt that if it's unsafe/ a public hazard they'll rip you a new one.Once you've got it out the ground you can use whatever means you wish to process it though.

As far as location goes, state forest is fine, as is private land (with permission of course). Stay out of National parks except in a few special cases (this is detailed on the enegry and earth website where you can buy your miners right) and any reserves signed as not for fossicking/prospecting. There's also a list of rivers and creeks, available both here somewhere and on the earth resources website, where you cant prospect or process any material. If you're not sure on a reserve or other spot then go and see the local DELWP office, they'll (hopefully :rolleyes: ) be able to tell you whether or not it's ok. Even they don't always seem to know and in this case I personally err to the side of caution.

Remember this is only for VIC, and doesn't apply in NSW. hopefully someone can elucidate the NSW rules as they currently stand for you.

Forgot to say, this is only a quick synopsis of the rules in VIC for personal reference. It shouldn't be taken as gospel, Especially not over the determination of an appropriate official, but it should be enough to keep you out of the firing line. Further reading is available on the earth resouces website ( http://earthresources.vic.gov.au/earth-resources-regulation/recreational-prospecting-and-fossicking ) and in the act itself ( http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/mrda1990432/ ) which as with all legislation is a large and complicated document, the relevant portion is mostly part 5 (other authorities) in any case. The rest of it primarily pertains to PLs, ELs and MLs but may be a useful as a general reference to what hasn't actually been legislated against yet if you're that type of pedant ;) .
 
maybe before anyone goes out banking get all the information you can then print it out and put it in a plastic folder, if someone turns up be nice and ask for there ID, if they are the rite people give em your info........ then if they give you a hard time tell em to bugger off.
 
https://fpos.fcnsw.com.au/A-Guide-to-Fossicking-in-New-South-Wales.PDF

"On land or waters that are not subject to native title, fossicking is not restricted to hand held
implements, but power-operated equipment cannot be used for the purpose of surface disturbance,
excavation or processing.
"

Mining Regulation 2010 under the Mining Act 1992

clause 12 Fossicking

(1) Any soil, rock or other material that is disturbed in the course of work
carried out for the purpose of fossicking for minerals must:

(a) be removed and stockpiled separately, and

(b) after completion of the work, be replaced in order to reconstruct
the original soil profile.

(2) A person must not carry out work that includes any of the following
activities for the purpose of fossicking:

(a) the use of any equipment other than hand-held implements on
any land or waters that is subject to native title,

(b) the excavation or clearing of any land or waters that is subject to
native title,

(c) the use of power-operated equipment for the purpose of surface
disturbance, excavation or processing on any land,

(d) the use of explosives on any land,

(e) the damage or removal of any bushrock,

(f) the removal of more than the prescribed amount of material from
any land during any single period of 48 hours,

(g) the disturbance of more than 1 cubic metre of any soil, rock or
other material during any single period of 48 hours.

In this clause power-operated equipment means any equipment powered by
mechanical or electrical means.

The problem is highbankers are not defined in the current legislation, the prospectors argument is that obviously the water pump is not being used to disturb or excavate (opposed to dredging) it is used to transfer water from point A to point B and the highbanker is not mechanically (or thankfully electrically) driven its simply a semi fluidised bed/gravity trap :)

There are no issues with current legislation for using water in this way. The grey area however is the wording "processing" and we can argue that placer gold is already in the alluvial deposit, we are not extracting by mechanical means the gold from gold bearing ore. That we are just washing away other less desirable materials with the use of the legally obtained water and gravity, which I assume is also still free to use ;)

The Fisheries Officers I ran into could not see that argument and insisted I was dredging. Their main concern being wash/turbidity caused by the highbanker, even though I had allowed a good 5m for silt/mud to be filtered or settle. The tail it produced was no longer than 10m and cleared fully in very little time after I had shut everything down. So 300m downstream in Qld, is determined excessive, and maybe rightfully so as I doubt there is a prospectors sluice or highbanker that could produce such an amount of turbidity from tailings unless it was actual mining plant like "Monster Red" but in NSW there is no determination and its left up to the discretion of those given the power to uphold the regulation.

If I was given a fine, I would have had to tread carefully because at the current time no one has been prosecuted for highbanking in NSW and for the sake of every other prospectors in NSW I would certainly not like to see myself on the losing side of a court case that sets precedent for all of us.

It works both ways though as this is the reason no one has yet been prosecuted because if the government agencies (or people a part of them) opposed to the hobby we love, don't yet have a strong enough case to effectively shutdown highbanking. A court case in favour of the humble, rule following, hobbyist prospector sets precedent and possibly puts an end to the stick waving of some select public servants and politicians.

Unfortunately for us at the current state of wording it all depends on a persons interpretation of the act and if they are in a good or bad mood!
 
To stop their concern could you run the water into a little catchment rather than back into the river?

Sorry, newby question!
 
Eric2017 said:
To stop their concern could you run the water into a little catchment rather than back into the river?

Sorry, newby question!

Nah it's not a newbie idea, I intend to use some geofabric to try to stop mud in the tailings a little and try to move even higher up the bank and just cart material a bit further, even regardless of the questions of turbidity they still consider the highbanker itself to be illegal.

So in the end six of one and half a dozen of the other lol.
 
A cradle with a manual bilge pump, or even grabbing a handy ten year old/mate and hooking up a manual bilge pump to your high banker (may have to organise a smaller unit in this case due to reduced flow) would get around that issue I think. Obviously your throughput would drop in either case, but depending on whether or not the legislation changes it may be an option worth considering for areas without enough flow to run a river sluice, Or where fisheries are hanging around I suppose. I doubt they'd take a kind view of river sluicing in regards to turbidity generation either.

Be aware though a ten year old would definitely be convinced that your breaking child labour laws after five minutes on the pump, and they tend to complain loudly about that sort of thing :lol:

Doesn't stop them being convinced it's a dredge of course. But as far as I understand at least there are extra punitive measures in place for dredging (Someone mentioned criminal charges in a previous discussion I think) and making sure they're not on the end of a lawsuit for wrongful punishment or something is an issue I don't doubt their upper management would take very seriously. Especially if it's one solved by sending out a single page memo on how to identify the average suction dredge and yelling at a couple of underlings. Ensuring that end of things is put into action is probably best left NAPFA though, or at least done in coordination with them.
 
Gday , Chris
Just to confuse the issue further...

When the Fisheries officers stated that you were dredging they were relying on the definition of dredging under the Fisheries Management ( General ) Regulation 2010 and NOT the Prospectors/ Fosickers / Miners definition of dredging. ie. A machine that vacuums the bottom of the river, extracts the gold and redeposits the non gold back into the river.

263 Dredging work
(1) For the purposes of paragraph (b) of the definition of dredging work in section 198A of the Act, the following work is prescribed:
(a) work that involves the removal of woody debris, snags, gravel beds, cobbles, rocks, boulders, rock bars or aquatic vegetation from water land,
(b) work that involves the removal of any other material from water land that disturbs, moves or harms woody debris, snags, gravel beds, cobbles, rocks, boulders, rock bars or aquatic vegetation.
(2) In this clause, aquatic vegetation means native vegetation that inhabits freshwater but does not include noxious weeds within the meaning of the Noxious Weeds Act 1993.

The term " water land " is defined as such FMA 1994 No. 38 , Section 198A

water land means land submerged by water:
(a) whether permanently or intermittently, or
(b) whether forming an artificial or natural body of water,
and includes wetlands and any other land prescribed by the regulations as water land to which this Division applies.

So it may appear that they were correct in this situation BUT as they refused to show you their authority as required under
Section 246 (1) of the Fisheries Management Act 1994 No38
(1) A fisheries officer must, on demand by a person in relation to whom the officer is exercising or proposing to exercise functions under this Act, produce his or her instrument of authority for inspection by that person.

Then 246 (2) would have applied in your case
(2) If the fisheries officer fails to produce his or her instrument of authority on demand of such a person, the person is not guilty of an offence under this Act of resisting or obstructing a fisheries officer, or failing to comply with a requirement of such an officer.

For what is generally an enjoyable, peaceful hobby practiced by many people can become very complicated when each of the definitions that are used in the legislation of the State vary from Act To Act. It would be lot easier for everyone if the Government could get its act together and use one definitive set of definitions to cover all legislation.

Cheers

Bob
 
Bend: .. I personally couldnt care who/what they were, if i was in the right, id be quite happy to stand, argue, or deliver. No biggie to me.
 
Balmain Bob said:
Gday , Chris
the Government could get its act together
Cheers

Bob

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry that just stood out a bit.

In any case I do wonder how fisheries management and prospecting legislation interact in this case? That appears to stop a large portion of prospecting activities dead in the water (excuse the pun), the term 'permanently or intermittently" in the definition of water land would definitely include rockbars, gravel bars etc I would have thought. A worrying thought that one.

As to the refusal to provide ID I still reckon that there'd have to be something either in legislation or their terms of employment including a punitive clause for that sort of thing, as well as the section you've indicated that indemnifies people against the consequences of noncompliance. As I understand it that sort of thing is highly frowned upon in enforcement agencies of all stripes, due to the tendency of corrupt officers not wanting to be easily ID'ed I suppose.
 
ballarat_gold said:
Bend: .. I personally couldnt care who/what they were, if i was in the right, id be quite happy to stand, argue, or deliver. No biggie to me.

Fair enough, it's a free country after all and stand and argue I fully agree with. Personally I wouldn't want to be the poster child for prospectors attacking enforcement agents though, if nothing else they have a lot more backup available than I do both on the ground and in court.

That's definitely how they'd play it in court (and possibly the media depending on how much noise you make) by the way, even in this case where you'd be indemnified against the consequences of telling them to F off you definitely would be rolled hard if you did anything that could be reasonably construed as assault. When it comes to that point dealing with enforcement it's generally best to make a legal example of them if you can, starting a punchup ends up with you on charges and them free to continue committing the same acts to everyone else :mad: . If you can't make an example of them in court, then take it to the court of public opinion, same as the various rights movements around the world.
 
Anyway even with all the hoopla I got to come home with a bit of colour and that's a good end to the story :p
1485908342_colesbridgejan29.jpg
 
That pun was intended to help make the point of how stupid the whole situation is with regard to the laws and regulations that have to be worked through when trying to pursue a hobby like fossicking, prospecting , drone flying, drinking etc.

We are too over regulated but that is a topic for latter. :)

Bob
 
AussieChris said:
Anyway even with all the hoopla I got to come home with a bit of colour and that's a good end to the story :phttps://www.prospectingaustralia.com/forum/img/member-images/4915/1485908342_colesbridgejan29.jpg

Good on ya AussieChris, that looks like a decent little pot for a day by the river. :D Done well, especially with the b****rising around you had to endure.
 

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