Hiccup reduction

[Reg]

I have asked Zuke to help me and he has agreed. So, he will do my remote testing when possible.

Keep in mind that all hiccups can't be eliminated, but many can. The TDI will respond to ground signals and hotrocks and so will the SPP. The difference is, they may not sound exactly the same. Also, at the present time, the SPP has a whole lot more of the odd signals, many of which are called hiccups.

Since Zuke has both the TDI and the SPP, he makes a perfect choice, plus he has done some other mods I suggested to improve the sensitivity of the TDI. Fortunately, those mods seem to work well.

As we found out, what works fine over here in the US may not work well in OZ. The SPP is a perfect example. Over here, the SPP works great with basically no hiccup type signals or if one does happen it is rare. So, in a nutshell, we need some different techniques to simulate what you have for ground and even then we are not really duplicating it.

Anyway, getting back to an improvement, I asked Zuke to try a mod on the SPP and he says it works over there. No, it doesn't eliminate all the hiccups, but does reduce them noticeably. I also suspect what signals do still exist will exist on the TDI also. At least most of them will. Since the TDI is proven itself, then if we can approach the TDI in the number of odd signals, we will be at the best we can get.

Hopefully, Zuke will help us by telling how close we are to that goal.

I really appreciate all of your inputs. They do help me in trying to find a solution. I especially appreciate Zuke's efforts since he is my eyes and ears over there also, but is making and testing the mods on his own detector. That makes things much easier for me and makes more sense than sending detectors back and forth. Once we find a total solution, I hope Zuke will help his fellow countrymen and provide his technical expertise in making some mods to some of your detectors. That would be a whole lot faster and easier than sending any back for service.

Reg

 

[Guest]

Iv performed the mod for Reg to help reduce the hiccup iv also got the conductivity switch fitted' I don't normally have much trouble ground balancing but now I feel it's a little easier, the hiccup signal is still there but diminished some making it a little easier to work in hot ground what I found today with the mod was if I switched into LOW conductivity not only could most hot rocks & ground noise be ignored the hiccup had disappeared without loosing sensitivity on small gold.
Also note when using LOW conductivity a lot of iron trash is ignored.

Sorry about the video quality'

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=baL_wkZVmiI

I'm sure I'll have more to test soon but things a looking good for this little machine.

 

[Guest]

Hmmm - I don't think I'll be getting one anytime soon. Still seemed very erratic?
With the low conductivity switch ignoring hot rocks (did you kick one out of the way?), ground noise & most iron how could you be completely sure your not missing gold unless you have xray vision?
Things would need to look a lot better before I'd consider one now even at the low price. How does the TDI run in that area in comparison?

 

[old hand]

I would like to see the same tests with ML and NF coils as believe Miner Johns coil are not as sensitive as ML and NF thanks john

 

[Roscoe]

Zuke, Thanks for posting the video mate. Very interesting looks like some progress is being made to eliminate this hiccup.

 

[Reg]

Old hand,

We know the ML compatible DD coils cause problems and can't be used as they are built on either the TDI or the SPP. Now, I feel I have an external mod that might allow them to be used but that won't be given out until I am sure. Because of what was found with the DD coils, it brings up other serious questions about the Compatible mono coils and how they may not work right.

You don't seem to have much confidence in me and that is fine, but you should realize there are less than a handful of people who fully understand how the TDI series works and I am one of them. Another one died a while back and the chief electrical engineer at White's who also knows the design well and who worked with Eric Foster has since left Whites. That leaves Eric Foster and he is trying to retire. At least that is what I was told.

Now, because there are very few people fully knowledgeable on the TDI series I have offered to help find a solution and I am working towards that goal. Even though the noise reduction design is simple, what exactly happens is not. The signals in the SPP, the SL are not the same as in the TDI in one certain area. Unfortunately, this is one of the more parts of the TDI that are not fully understood. To make matters worse, the two channels of information vary in signal height and width depending upon the object being detected. So, ground signals don't act like gold signals which don't act exactly like iron signals, etc, etc, etc.

Trying to make all the different signals match so the wrong one isn't on longer than another is not easy. think of it as trying to continue to balance a teeter totter while changing people of different sizes on both ends.

I have no plans on making ML mono coils work with no hiccup on the SPP. Whites makes their coils along the lines of Eric's recommendations. Mine are along the same line. Miner John's are also along those lines. So, I am confident they will work fine once the last of the issues is resolved. Now, whether the ML compatible coils work once I have reached my objective or not is not my concern. I could probably make the same mod that would make the DD coils help the ML coils also.

Right now, the SPP should run extremely quiet, quieter than any other PI if the GB is set above the perfect GB setting and low mode is selected once the conductivity switch is installed and the mods added. That is a huge step for any PI. In fact, I have been using the SL over here set up that way, so I know the benefits.

Reg

 

[old hand]

Reg
sorry you feel that way Reg as fare as DD coils the last time I used one was just for testing for other forum users to see if we all had the same result with DD coils other than that I never use them I prefer monos with the extra gain that you achieve . Its not only ML coils that hiccup NF , razorback and even the standard Whites coil provided also hiccups .thanks john

 

[Reg]

For those of you who watched the video, in the first 25 seconds or so, it shows how sweeping over hot ground can cause different type of signals. You can get no hiccup, no signal at all, only the hiccup, and finally the ground signal with a hiccup. All these different sounds off nothing but a hot spot ground wise. So, why do you get four different sounds and conditions? Well, several factors come into play including coil height, sweep speed, gain setting, and GB setting just to name the important ones. Now, trying to figure out just what is causing each different response becomes quite a challenge. Then after that is figured out, it then becomes a real challenge to figure out how to solve each one without influencing the other conditions.

Now, the SPP or the SL work well over here in the US and basically we have to really work to develop any of these bad or odd signals. Knowing what Eric Foster discovered when he analyzed the ground signal intensities it only makes sense, that is one of the main if not the main culprit.

The beauty of this initial mod is now you can tweak the GB, use the low conductor mode if the Conductor switch has been added and basically make the detector a silent search unit that won't ignore small gold up to at least a 1/4oz but maybe a lot bigger depending upon the gold characteristics. Gold with a lot of silver, copper or other impurity may stay a low tone even when the gold is several oz's.

Yes, the gold signal is just fine and won't be ignored since a gold nugget within the low conductor mode range will create a high tone and that tone will be just as strong as it is in the all mode.

Now, just because the detector is silent doesn't mean a person can get very sloppy in sweep techniques. In fact, it pays to experiment with something like the 0.1gram nugget in the video and bury it to maximum depth it can reliably be detected and then sweep over it using different sweep speeds, techniques, etc. Once the best combination is determined, then one should try to maintain and practice that setup all the time.

Some people will find they will have to slow down a little more often than having to speed up. A lot of this comes from using a VLF which works on a totally different principle and can be swept faster.

One more thing about this mod, it is not difficult to implement to this point. However working on a surface mount pc board isn't easy and using certain tools such as a hammer and chisel are out.

Reg

 

[dazza513]

I know that area where zuke shot this video well and the ground hotness and emi/rfi are pretty full on! its that area that helped me decide to sell my sd2100 many years ago.

I've said before about tuning the gb to reduce the hiccup and it works in really well even on my stock standard spp

is the spp the perfect detector? no its not.(what is?)

is the spp worth buying? absolutely, use the spp to its strengths and you have a nice lightweight pulse machine that's very capable.

regards Daryl

 

[KarlS]

I know that area where zuke shot this video well and the ground hotness and emi/rfi are pretty full on! its that area that helped me decide to sell my sd2100 many years ago.

I've said before about tuning the gb to reduce the hiccup and it works in really well even on my stock standard spp

is the spp the perfect detector? no its not.(what is?)

is the spp worth buying? absolutely, use the spp to its strengths and you have a nice lightweight pulse machine that's very capable.

regards Daryl

I will second that.
Karl

 

[Guest]

The GP3000 I had 12 months ago would not GB with monos in this area long enough to sweep let alone settle down from EMI, I originally purchased the TDI pro because it ran fine everywhere with out much fuss.
A few simple mods on the SPP and it will be quite capable too' just remember most people that will purchase a SPP may never have much dramas due to different applications/locations as I originally didn't, so the mods even tho simple may not apply to everyone.

 

[KarlS]

Back to what Reg wrote about detecting gold over 1/4 onces in low conductivity mode. With DD coil I have noticed that if you pass coil over large high conductivity target,you will get very short beep. That may be indican that there is something under the coil that warrant futher investigation. Unfortunately I don't have big gold nugget to try it with the gold.
Karl

 

[Reg]

Old hand,

You are correct, the factory SPP does hiccup and needs to be corrected. As I said, we don't see that problem over here so we didn't know it existed. I assure you if we had known, they would have been modified long ago.

The noise reduction addition to the SPP and SL created this problem and we didn't know it did.

On the upside, the mods so far seem to help in minimizing the problem. Also on the upside, it is a very simple fix to this point. As a bonus, you will find the SPP easier to GB also.

Every time something is done to a PI, there is both an action and a reaction. Nothing comes for free even in the electronic world. So, we are limited to doing one thing at a time and see what happens. If this wasn't bad enough wondering just what might happen, then EMI raises its ugly head. Just as one forum member found out, get too close to an EMI source and depth is lost. The SPP detector stays quiet which is nice, but a certain depth loss occurs. The Freq control is there to minimize that loss but on the SPP like on the SL, it is very difficult to hear the noise.

Here is a different can of worms. If a switch were to be added that would short out the key parts so noise could be heard making setting the freq switch easy, those same wires going to the switch would add more noise. So a different design would or should be used. I have already figured how this might be done, but it requires building mini boards to add a special little circuit that wouldn't add the extra noise.

So, this simple hiccup problem could get real messy. As such, I am desperately trying to avoid complicated solutions.

Did you know that old red bricks can be used to simulate some hot ground conditions? That is what I have to use and even then, I have to find the right bricks. For those of you that are curious, a red brick gets its color from the iron oxide added to the clay. The iron oxide is transformed when the brick is heated. Now, not all red bricks work well. So, you have to sort through them to find the best ones so you can build a wide enough layer.

Fortunately, I had some special rocks sent from OZ many years ago that are nothing like I have ever seen before and they help me with some of the testing.

On a different note, I want to thank Zuke for being willing to chop and hack his SPP for the benefit of all other SPP owners. Trying to find a solution remotely would be impossible without his help. We can't fix something we don't have happen and, as I said, we don't have the hiccup over here or not at the consistency it happens over there. This remote control type repair is only possible with help from someone like Zuke.

Changing the subject again, ML compatible DD coils and ML mono coils use different wire for the transmit winding. This creates a different signal than that made by one of Eric Foster's designed coils. Eric designed his GS 5 around his coils and this coil signal is different which is part of the problem as to why ML DD coils don't work without cheating. Hopefully, within a week or so, I will know if my "fix" idea will work or not in allowing DD coils to work better.

One more thing, Eric used a special lead foil to shield his coils. This does a much better job of reducing EMI problems. Today, the lead foil can't be used, so a different material had to be found. That has been accomplished. Coil manufacturers use a carbon paint or carbon coated paper to do the shielding. This type of shielding works fine for minimizing the basic reason for coil shielding but isn't as effective as a means of reducing noise. The individual winding of a special shielding material makes making coils more difficult and time consuming, but that is what I do and what Miner John does. As such, MJ's and my coils will generally be quieter.

Well, I have bored people enough for now but I would like to say we are making progress and quickly I might add even though many may not feel that way. Building a new designed detector takes a long time and even something as simple as field testing it can take well over a year to be accomplished. I am trying to fast track this same thing in days instead of months.

Now, just so you know, I have been in communication with White's and they have offered their full support. They are working on a solution from their end while I am working with Zuke to find a solution that is tested and works in OZ. Together, we will find a solution that works and makes the SPP a truly great detector to own.

Reg

 

[KarlS]

Hey Reg, don't stress about it. You will find acceptable solution in your good time.
Karl

 

[Reg]

Hi Karl,

I am not stressed, but do have a self imposed time frame to complete the fix. Alan Holcombe is the present Corporate Manager of Whites and has always been cooperative and friendly. More importantly, he has always done what was necessary to uphold quality of product and White's best interest and reputation. He is truly one of the great leaders in the detector world and I am proud to say I know him.

Well, he is retiring in a couple of weeks and I really would love to fix this problem as a going away present.

Reg

 

[KarlS]

Fair enough, I remember it from the times when I was working. Self imposed goals drive you harder then the boss sitting on you back.
Karl

 

[Reg]

Hi All,

I have a big favor to ask and that is; please don't make any more mechanical mods like adding vernier controls, etc, etc, to the SPP for a short time to try to solve the hiccup problem. I will explain why later when I can.

Now, Karl, I need to tell you that Alan Holcombe decided to retire early and is now gone from White's. As I mentioned, I wanted to solve this hiccup problem before he left. Well.....

Now, I really appreciate everyone's willingness to help and provide Videos. They do help and a few more would be nice showing the hiccup while actually hunting. I need to know how irritating it was. Also, it would be nice to know what parts of OZ displayed the problem. So, even if you don't or can't provide a video, just knowing where in OZ the problem exists would be a benefit.

Finally, I need to thank Zuke for all his help and enthusiasm. When the smoke clears from this problem, he is the man to thank.

Reg

 

[ronniecruisin]

Don't have mine anymore Reg. Personally I found it very annoying even though it did not affect the ability of the machine. But I can tell you it was pretty bad around the Bendigo Central Victoria area. And you're dead right about Zuke. I've met him. Good guy and helpful too. Not surprised he's giving you so much of his time on this. Regards... Ronnie.

 

[Reg]

Ronnie,

Too bad you didn't hang on a little longer. Why? Well, if you live near Zuke, you should drop by and try his SPP.

Reg

 

[Roscoe]

This person could be a good candidate to fix the SPP as they have carried out a lot of mods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ihayCodVkc

:lol: