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StoneTheCrows

StoneTheCrows

Neil Mulvaney
Joined
Feb 21, 2018
Messages
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Location
Central Coast, NSW
Posted this so the Anzac Day thread did not get sidetracked
Hopefully this post can be debated without deteriorating into a beat up.
Mods can remove if they think this is not appropiate post.

I love Australia.
I do not love the Aussie Flag

I don't like the Union Jack in the flag - and yes I understand why it is there.
If I had to I would defend our current flag if it was used in a bad way.
I do not believe Aussies fought wars for this flag.
I have spoken about this to my Grandfather (WW1) and father (WW2) and they did not consider the flag as anything they fought for.
They both disliked the Union Jack

They and I believe our flag should also have some recognition of the indigenous people or culture incorporated.
(I also served in the military for 10 years and am not taking the thread lightly.)

What do you guys think.
 
StoneTheCrows said:
Posted this so the Anzac Day thread did not get sidetracked
Hopefully this post can be debated without deteriorating into a beat up.
Mods can remove if they think this is not appropiate post.

I love Australia.
I do not love the Aussie Flag

I don't like the Union Jack in the flag - and yes I understand why it is there.
If I had to I would defend our current flag if it was used in a bad way.
I do not believe Aussies fought wars for this flag.
I have spoken about this to my Grandfather (WW1) and father (WW2) and they did not consider the flag as anything they fought for.
They both disliked the Union Jack

They and I believe our flag should also have some recognition of the indigenous people or culture incorporated.
(I also served in the military for 10 years and am not taking the thread lightly.)

What do you guys think.
Click to expand...

They Both fought under the Australian flag which was the RED ENSIGN. The Blue ENSiGN which is our currently used flag was only used for official purposes until the 50's.
 
The whole thing is problematic. Firstly, the "Aboriginal flag" is owned by one person- Harold Thomas. It is an artwork registered by copyright to him, not the aboriginal people as such. He is also a Luritja man, whose country is represented in the flag (western desert of Western Australia, incidentally which has tried to secede from the federation at least twice in Australias history, and even has such a movement active today).

Secondly, the Union Jack as it now stands on Australias flag is historically problamatic too. It isn't the flag that Captain Cook Hoisted when he first came ashore in 1770. The Union Jack wasn't like it is now until after the Act of Union in 1801. And yet, if we stick to historical accuracy and go back to the Kings Colours/ British flag of Cooks time, we leave out some of our most important pioneers- The Irish. But then, Irelands flag doesn't have St Patricks cross on it either. So, we then come back to the usual bun fight of what should be on our flag? Personally, I think there are more important issues to address for our country than a coloured piece of cloth. Suffice to say, the current flag does represent the settlers who most contributed to our early settlement- The Union Jack Which of course is a compilation of the English (cross of St George), the Irish (St Patricks cross) the Welsh (St Davids cross) the Scots (St Andrews cross) and the whole of Australia, being the Southern Cross, which is here for all of us on the continent, and has existed even before European or Aboriginal settlement.
 
StoneTheCrows said:
Posted this so the Anzac Day thread did not get sidetracked
Hopefully this post can be debated without deteriorating into a beat up.
Mods can remove if they think this is not appropiate post.

I love Australia.
I do not love the Aussie Flag

I don't like the Union Jack in the flag - and yes I understand why it is there.
If I had to I would defend our current flag if it was used in a bad way.
I do not believe Aussies fought wars for this flag.
I have spoken about this to my Grandfather (WW1) and father (WW2) and they did not consider the flag as anything they fought for.
They both disliked the Union Jack

They and I believe our flag should also have some recognition of the indigenous people or culture incorporated.
(I also served in the military for 10 years and am not taking the thread lightly.)

What do you guys think.
Click to expand...

Here here
Totally agree.
We don't fight for a flag we fight for our liberties and country and there should be recognition of the indigenous owners of or country
 
Deepseeker

Not arguing with anyone

It is just a topic that arose in a seperate thread and I thought it was worth talking about.
No-one on this forum is going to solve any important issues facing any country, we can still discuss and debate hopefully in a positive way as is the purpose of a forum.

I know it isn't a gold topic but hey, in these times we are not going to get much gold talk stuck at home.

Thanks for posting
 
Well fella's...we've been down this road before!..It ended almost as soon as it started, when I and Ridge Runner ended up trading blows :eek: :p .in cyber space.I do however totally agree with almost everything Mike has said. Basically the First Nations people Are represented on our flag already, in the form of the Southern Cross. It plays a huge part in the Dreamtime Stories as it represents the 'Tree of Life'...I would be happy to elaborate ,however it is suffice to say that the Pointers are involved as well and it is a wonderful story. In my humble opinion there is nothing required on the Flag as it is... except the removal of the Union Jack.I believe that we as a Nation should STAND TOGETHER, United under one National Flag.To do otherwise is divisive and panders to 'special interest groups' who however badly they may have been treated in the past must at some point in time recognise the Nation as it is, as we march shoulder to shoulder with them on into the rest of the 21st Century and beyond. :cool:
 
StoneTheCrows said:
Posted this so the Anzac Day thread did not get sidetracked
Hopefully this post can be debated without deteriorating into a beat up.
Mods can remove if they think this is not appropiate post.

I love Australia.
I do not love the Aussie Flag

I don't like the Union Jack in the flag - and yes I understand why it is there.
If I had to I would defend our current flag if it was used in a bad way.
I do not believe Aussies fought wars for this flag.
I have spoken about this to my Grandfather (WW1) and father (WW2) and they did not consider the flag as anything they fought for.
They both disliked the Union Jack

They and I believe our flag should also have some recognition of the indigenous people or culture incorporated.
(I also served in the military for 10 years and am not taking the thread lightly.)

What do you guys think.
Click to expand...
If they did change it this would be spot on in my opinion :beer:
1587106920_20200415_071855_copy_800x406.jpg
 
Hi Reefer

Dont let this get the blood pumping too hard mate. :heart:
Hope you are keeping healthy.

My next topic is going to be the national anthem :awful:

Yes the thing that I do not agree with is the Union Jack.

I respect everyone's opinion and just saying what I was thinking after reading another post.

Cant wait until we can have another meetup when this lockdown blows over.
Camp Fire and sing along :Y:
 
StoneTheCrows said:
Hey Smokey

I am glad you posted a piccie.
I was hoping that we would see some good artwork ideas for a flag.

Nice one
Click to expand...
Yer mate I personally would prefer this flag but I also love the one we got.. :beer:
 
G'day

It would not bother me either which way if we retained the flag we have or changed it to something else, while the current design has served us well and many people consider a change to be wrong because they have served under it and that it depicts our roots with the union jack and also the southern cross showing where we are located in the world, it all makes sense to us but in many places around the world they have no idea what all that means?

As times have changed since its inception I was wondering whether something more acutely Australian would be more recognizable to the majority of people around the globe who would be viewing it, there is no more a symbol that people all over the world recognize more readily than our Kangaroo it is as unique as we are, and we could also recognize our indigenous peoples heritage with the aboriginal flag behind the Kangaroo, and possibly the southern cross in the top corner but maybe not? as most people in the world would probably have little idea what that signifies?

cheers

stayyerAU
 
Got all the right symbolic meanings in there, and my thoughts are the same in relation to the anthem.

Cant understand any need for change, if it aint broke dont fix it.

The time I spent in Cubs and Scouts, learning, honouring and being a custodian of the flag made me lifetime proud of the flag as it is. Call it indoctrination but Id be aghast if it changed.

Would it not seem strange to have something else? All the branding, Australia day, Anzac day etc all the iconic moments pictured with the flag?

I just try and picture another Olympics or Commonwealth games, or an Australia day or national events and have something else instead and it just doesnt gel in my mind.
 
As pointed out the Union Jack is made up of the Crosses of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland, who's people pioneered Australia over 200 years ago, Like it or not 90% of you have roots back to those people, They are your Heritage, They are your History, And Before Australia then your Heritage is directly linked to England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland dating back over 7000 years with a few immigrants coming from other parts of modern day Europe along with a few other places across the Globe,

And to Dismiss the Union jack is to dismiss who you are and your Own personal Heritage from your grand parents and your Great Grand Parents and your Great Great grand parents before them,

Most of you are impressed by people like Ned Kelly and the Old Prospectors that were posted in that thread a while ago, Where do you think they came from If not the UK and Europe,

This flag BS is nothing but that, because most of you are part of that Union Jack as much as it is part of you and to deny that is to deny your own existence and your families before you, LOL
 
Ridge Runner said:
As pointed out the Union Jack is made up of the Crosses of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland, who's people pioneered Australia over 200 years ago, Like it or not 90% of you have roots back to those people, They are your Heritage, They are your History, And Before Australia then your Heritage is directly linked to England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland dating back over 7000 years with a few immigrants coming from other parts of modern day Europe along with a few other places across the Globe
Click to expand...

The number of Aussies with UK ancestry is actually 67.4% and there's another 8.7% with Irish Republic forebears. So the total is 76.1% not 90%, which leaves about a quarter of Australians with no such roots. How long have you been away from country, John? :D

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/ethnic-background-of-australians.html
 
reefer said:
Well fella's...we've been down this road before!..It ended almost as soon as it started, when I and Ridge Runner ended up trading blows :eek: :p .in cyber space.I do however totally agree with almost everything Mike has said. Basically the First Nations people Are represented on our flag already, in the form of the Southern Cross. It plays a huge part in the Dreamtime Stories as it represents the 'Tree of Life'...I would be happy to elaborate ,however it is suffice to say that the Pointers are involved as well and it is a wonderful story. In my humble opinion there is nothing required on the Flag as it is... except the removal of the Union Jack.I believe that we as a Nation should STAND TOGETHER, United under one National Flag.To do otherwise is divisive and panders to 'special interest groups' who however badly they may have been treated in the past must at some point in time recognise the Nation as it is, as we march shoulder to shoulder with them on into the rest of the 21st Century and beyond. :cool:
Click to expand...

Now we can trade cyber blows Reefer :p possibly for a while ;)
I had a similar post taken down as this is a sore point with me
The southern cross is on the flag due to geography not to recognise the aborigine

When you say special interest groups, do you mean aboriginals the owners of this land before the Union Jack arrived and done " dastardly" things to them yet are still here as a race
In my lifetime the Australian aborigines got the ability to vote for a government in their land.
Why was that
They had their children taken away from them in my lifetime.

They were pushed to the fringe of the whitemans society fed alcohol and drugs for easy manipulation and are now despised for what our ancestors the Union Jack turned their race into.
And then ask them to move on and get over it.

If l was a black fella, l wouldn't get over it because l would like justice.

A treaty should have been drawn up 200 years ago.
Then we could stand together
 
The union jack is a significant representation of history recorded in the roots of this historical turn of a nation into modern age.

The southern cross is a unique representation of navigational skills required to find the unfindable joint a lot in part to the great barrier reef.

The stars individually represent our modern day of governance, freedom and independence of the modern world. (The star below the union jack represents the unity of the six states and the territories of Australia actuated by the number of points).

Everyone in history has banded together for a common unity under a flag from tribes in china to almost any company anyone has ever worked for with badges or labels.

I would probably not go into a war representing unity when the goal is to create diversity (voluntarily) but I would absolutely fight for recognition of self preservation for myself and family. If a flag represents that i'm all for it and I think some more indigenous representation would be justified if represented in a unified way.

My two bobs
 
As a Kiwi, I don't have a horse in this race, but it's interesting to note that the only distinctively Australian feature on the present flag is the seven-pointed Commonwealth/Federation star.

There's four other Southern Hemisphere national flags that also proudly carry the Southern Cross: New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Samoa and Brazil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_depicting_the_Southern_Cross
 

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