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#1

Occasional_panner
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Joined: 20 July 2016
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16 October 2020 04:19 pm

Please fill in your details and join the list.

https://ssaavic.com.au/public-land-access/

4 users like this post: mudgee hunter, reefer, EVIE/BEE, clintonb

#2

bumdags
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16 October 2020 07:42 pm

The problem with this is that it will give people another sense of entitlement and have too many yobos leaving farm gates open and rubbish and litter behind. Dont get me wrong id love more public land access but this idea is going to cause a lot of tension between farmers and campers. Maybe they can open the rivers more without the camping on farmland. Perhaps a few new designated camping areas. And the construction of such places also creates jobs. Just my opinion

#3

Northeast
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16 October 2020 07:57 pm

This bill is the most ridiculous thing to be placed before parliament in a long time.
Absolutely no regard for farmers who manage and care for the land and the water front.

Is everyone happy for a farmer to come to Melbourne and waltz through your yard and pitch a tent and shoot ducks flying overhead.

Property owners pay handsomely to purchase and then maintain their own little piece of paradise. But some yobbo can now come there, camp for as long as they want, have firearms - sounds like great fun thumbsdown

Of course they are required to keep the place clean and take all of their rubbish. You know, just like how that happens everywhere now on public land mad

Bumdags is right. Tensions between self righteous, drongo campers, shooters and fishers will end up in all sorts of trouble.

Dumbest idea ever! awful

#4

EVIE/BEE
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From: 6383, WA
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16 October 2020 07:57 pm

Farmers should be reminded with the utmost respect that all they own is the grass.

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#5

mudgee hunter
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16 October 2020 08:07 pm

A sense of entitlement..?
If it is passed, you ARE entitled! That's what it is all about.
I'm sick of hearing and seeing gates shut because of a few idiots!
Find them, fine them! If they do wrong.
For too long Australians have been locked out of Australia!
People bought cheap land near airports, then bitch about aircraft noise! Go figure!
Australian rivers need to be opened up.
And about bloody time!


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#6

Northeast
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16 October 2020 08:18 pm

So you own 60 acres of land that fronts a river. Maybe 500 metres of river. You have neighbours on both sides that are approx the same size. And there are multiple neighbours along the river until there is finally a bridge access point several kilometres away. It is not possible to link these properties all together to form a road along the river bank due to the terrain.

For decades people have been allowed to walk along the river to access it for fishing, bush walking, picnics, stopping off whilst canoeing, have a fire, etc. All legal, everyone happy, everyone has the right to access approx a 20 metre strip from the river bank. No issues there.

If someone could explain to me how Mr Sport Shooter is going to get from the road at the front of the property to the river bank with his 6 mates, their families and their caravans I'm all ears.

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#7

bumdags
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16 October 2020 08:25 pm

Thats the problem mudgee too many idiots thinking they are entiltled to do whatever they like with no respect for others

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#8

EVIE/BEE
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From: 6383, WA
Joined: 16 November 2018
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16 October 2020 09:12 pm

This is about crown land not freehold owned land... you guys are very argumentative must be the lockdown. lol

#9

mudgee hunter
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16 October 2020 09:37 pm

bumdags wrote:

Thats the problem mudgee too many idiots thinking they are entiltled to do whatever they like with no respect for others

I see both sides of the story.
And I believe each lease should be considered individually. But is a step forward into opening up Australia!
Of course such will need more policing etc, and would need to addressed.
Some sights may only be accessible via a boat etc.
Australia was built upon being able to navigate rivers for travel etc.
Arriving on like some pork chop out of self greed is a no vote for me but


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#10

Northeast
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16 October 2020 09:38 pm

Yes Evie/Bee, it is about crown land.

My argument is how the visitors access that crown land? I believe the proposal is that farmers cannot prevent access across freehold.

Also, 20 metres from the river bank is the farmers land, stock, fences, pumps, electrical fittings, gates, diesel tanks. All of these visitors won’t touch any of this and leave things pristine? They’ll keep their kids away from bulls and off machinery? They won’t steal diesel?

These are the things that farmers ALREADY have issues with let alone increasing the numbers by allowing legal access.

I’m sorry but I have lived on farms most of my my life and still have a number of relatives and friends on farms in the NE and in the GT and there are issues with a$$holes doing the wrong thing all the time.

Cows getting shot because they can’t find a deer to shoot. Hunting quail through stubble paddocks that have ewes lambing in them (with dogs for pointing). Stealing fuel. Leaving gates open and letting stock out. Cutting fences because there wasn’t a gate near where ‘they wanted to go’.

It’s just not a feasible proposition because many, many people either don’t give a shite or are not from the country and simply don’t realise the impact they are having.

And as far as finding and fining those that do the wrong thing, that is just not plausible. Farmers can’t be expected to check every single day who is on their frontage, what their number plates are, how many people were there, etc. Then when there is an issue and the visitors have high tailed it back to Melbourne the farmer will provide the local coppers with details and the visitors will be found, fined and made to return to clean up the mess? It’s just not going to happen.

Look at what is happening with governments trying to lock up more land from shooters, prospectors, campers, motorbike riders, etc. Why are they doing it? It is because of numpty morons who continuously stuff things up for everyone else and don’t give a rats. And now they want to let these same numpties have access to areas that are privately managed. FFS.

1 user likes this post: jethro

#11

Occasional_panner
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16 October 2020 09:50 pm

Northeast wrote:

So you own 60 acres of land that fronts a river. Maybe 500 metres of river. You have neighbours on both sides that are approx the same size. And there are multiple neighbours along the river until there is finally a bridge access point several kilometres away. It is not possible to link these properties all together to form a road along the river bank due to the terrain.

For decades people have been allowed to walk along the river to access it for fishing, bush walking, picnics, stopping off whilst canoeing, have a fire, etc. All legal, everyone happy, everyone has the right to access approx a 20 metre strip from the river bank. No issues there.

If someone could explain to me how Mr Sport Shooter is going to get from the road at the front of the property to the river bank with his 6 mates, their families and their caravans I'm all ears.

The way I interpreted it was there had to be public access already to the river frontage (bridge), or it had to be accessed via the river itself.
Access across someones private land to get to the river isn't part of this idea and I don't think anyone would support that.
This is aimed at fishermen, to allow them to camp overnight where the current situation it's not allowed.

Keep in mind in Vic you can't own river frontage, it can be leased from the state for the farmer to have access to, but they never own it.
That is always state property.
The only thing to change here is to allow those that can already walk/kayak up the river and fish can camp on the bank overnight.
I can't think of one situation where there was a public vehicle access point that went to a farmers river frontage.

So no, this won't compell farmers to open their gates to campers, they still need to access the bank via the river, or the leased public land on the river frontage.

Remember, this is public land, the farmer doesn't own it.

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#12

Northeast
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16 October 2020 10:05 pm

I do understand leasehold and freehold - I owned some wink

Not all Victorian river frontage is leasehold but the vast majority is. I have an uncle that does own freehold, has put up very clear signs, has pictures of titles, diagrams of the frontage. And to most people it means nothing. They just do whatever they want. He points it out to them and he gets abused, threatened, threatened with legal action - all sorts of crap.

It is not just aimed at fishermen - the first post of this thread is a link to Sporting Shooters Association. They are pushing hard for access for duck hunters.

I would be happy to be advised that absolutely no public access through private land is available but I think that is not the case. That’s why the VFF and the Nats are so vehemently oppose it.

To be honest I thought you could already camp on leasehold river frontage if you accessed it from the water or by walking in. I see nothing wrong with boating down a river and rolling out a swag on the river bank. That sort of thing absolutely should be allowed.

#13

mudgee hunter
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Joined: 02 January 2017
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16 October 2020 10:07 pm

well don't EVER winge about being locked out yourself of national park, state forests, reserves, commons etc with that point of veiw.
There will ALWAYS be a few idiots. That's life, and some can't fathom that.
This mentality is what got the gates locked up in the first place !
Got shots at the pub banned..
Give us our freedom back to be Australians again.
No one should own such!


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#14

Occasional_panner
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16 October 2020 10:13 pm

Northeast wrote:

........................

To be honest I thought you could already camp on leasehold river frontage if you accessed it from the water or by walking in. I see nothing wrong with boating down a river and rolling out a swag on the river bank. That sort of thing absolutely should be allowed.

The way I understood this, that was the only change intended.

Sporting shooters almost always fish as well for a hobby (I've never known one that didn't), that's why it's promoted by their associations as well.

#15

Northeast
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Joined: 27 August 2016
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16 October 2020 11:17 pm

MH - I hear your sentiment. I won't whinge if there is a genuine reason for it. But I will whinge if there is not. Grazing cattle in the high country for example. Ridiculous to ban a few thousand head of hard hoofed cattle when there are millions of hard hoofed deer up there and there is not a damn thing being done about them. Deer do far more damage to waterways and fragile marshy ecosystems than the cattle ever did.

And unfortunately I disagree that it is 'a few idiots'. The number of idiots seems to be growing ever rapidly. We only have to look on our own forum to see many posts of people lamenting the thousands of holes that are being left open by detectorists around the state. I don't wonder for a second why bushwalkers, greenies, politicians, etc want to ban prospecting in many areas. It seems there are more than just a few idiots just among the detecting fraternity. I don't agree with locking up parks and forests to detecting but I can see their side of the story.

OP - I think we were both right about the current camping situation. The cut and paste section below is from a newspaper article so I can't guarentee it is correct but it seems reasonable. Essentially you can currently camp on a leased area however the leasee can move you on if they choose to.

"The amendment is being introduced by the Andrews Government to fulfil a 2018 election commitment of guaranteeing access to fishing and camping on Crown land that has grazing licenses and river frontage.

Currently the public can access and camp on these lands, but when a farmer or organisation is given a licence to use the area they have to right to prohibit overnight camping."

There was a good article in the Weekly Times on 09/09/2020 which I can find a link for but as I am not a subscriber I can't read it. I thought that is where I read about the not restricting access across private land to access the leasehold area. If someone has a copy that would be great.

Interesting article here too. https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2020- … s/12769046

"Catherine McCoy, a fifth-generation farmer in the Bundara Valley at Anglers Rest north west of Omeo, said she feared the energy and time her family has invested in maintaining and improving the land will be wasted.

"It's heartbreaking. We've paid our lease all these years. Why have we paid it?" she said.

"Do we continue to pay it when we don't have any say?"

I have been an avid cod fisherman for years and have never had trouble with access. Why? Because I ask. And then I do the right thing knowing full well that if I stuff up I won't be allowed on again. Not a bad system really? Land manager can make a choice who they let on and then based on their behaviour can make future judgements. Perhaps they are trying to fix something that isn't broken?

1 user likes this post: mudgee hunter

#16

BigL
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17 October 2020 07:50 am

Northeast wrote:

I have been an avid cod fisherman for years and have never had trouble with access. Why? Because I ask. And then I do the right thing knowing full well that if I stuff up I won't be allowed on again. Not a bad system really? Land manager can make a choice who they let on and then based on their behaviour can make future judgements. Perhaps they are trying to fix something that isn't broken?

Thats exactly right NE.. people have always had the right to access, just not the right to camp. I've always let people camp on "my land", just not down on the river frontage... they camp a few miserable feet away. Its always been family friends who've come and asked, never the public because the public generally is either too bloody lazy, have something to hide or they're just born sneaks.

You into your Cod fishing NE... pm me anytime mate, your more than welcome here! My back yard has the best Cod fishing in Vic and gold just down the road

And for those self righteous clowns who think this new legislation applies everywhere... your in for one big shock!

Furthermore, for those who shoot from rivers without courteous consent from adjacent land holders, you need to be extremely, and I'll emphasise that, extremely careful you dont screw it up for everyone!

Last edited by BigL (17 October 2020 08:18 am)

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#17

Occasional_panner
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17 October 2020 09:08 pm

BigL wrote:

Thats exactly right NE.. people have always had the right to access, just not the right to camp. I've always let people camp on "my land", just not down on the river frontage... they camp a few miserable feet away. Its always been family friends who've come and asked, never the public because the public generally is either too bloody lazy, have something to hide or they're just born sneaks.

Well well, you seem like a really friendly guy that lots of people would just love to spend their time with.

Normal people don't put sentences together like that, you seem a bit troubled to me.

1 user likes this post: mudgee hunter

#18

JD3
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Joined: 01 May 2020
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17 October 2020 09:29 pm

I am trying to bring some long retired brain cells back to life here. I do recall my father, gone now so cannot ask him and who was a mad crazy trout fisherman, he was real good too, once telling me about some rule or legality that allowed access to X amount of "chains" along rivers and creeks in Victoria. I cant recall if he ever said it changed to exclude the public or not but do recall it was once a freedom to access to fish within that measurement. Anyone know off hand what it was in Chains/feet/meters? Camping these days im not for as too many idiots that outweigh the good. But to walk on for a fish im all for. Rivers are stocked with fish for the public and if so we should be able to access them like in times past. Otherwise what on earth is the point of the public's money being spent on stocking rivers that are hudreds of kilometers long, thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of stocking just to get access to several points that add up to just a lousy couple or few hundred meters of river frontage if that with stock getting access to it craping and pissing in the water and degrading it, fertiliser runoffs causing green algae outbreaks and giving rise to massive fish kills making all those tens of thousands worth of stocking efforts turn into stinking rotting messes.
Im all for fishing access to river and creeks. Camping given today's idiots no, but the average fisherman I believe, those willing to walk a bit are fair dinkum decent. I'm also for stock access being very limited as being a long time fisherman I've seen first hand the crap creek and river areas are turned into with uncontrolled stock access.
Edit ...I should add here this. As much as I love the hunt for yellow I have also seen some disgusting efforts from dredgers in rivers.
This was the worst.
On the Loddon River between Newstead and Strangways Vic. A well known from the 80's, 90's who dredged was given access in the area. He did quite well with his dredge and wetsuit there. But he was convinced that in a bend there, and I know the exact precise spot as I know the farmer from fishing there, that there was gold under the big bank. That bank had been protected, stopped from errosion from the farmer years ago by planting trees on that bank so the roots and some rocks he put there that he had permission to do so would stop things. But this well known dredger decided to drill holes in the trees and poison them, which he did, and came back and dredged but was later found out to have done that when the dead trees were inspected and found to have drill holes in them and after the mines department or whoever were alerted ejected him and banned him from dredging. Utter dog low life and I knew him well too. But after having it 100% confirmed I rejected him utterly as a friend. And good ridence.

Last edited by JD3 (17 October 2020 10:16 pm)

#19

mudgee hunter
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17 October 2020 09:54 pm

There is many different people in the world, some might even sneak in and trespass, they where once considered as poachers by Nobels!
When all they wanted to do was fish, shoot a wild duck and get the pluck out!
Not rubbish the place etc!
But the Nobel one had them flogged!
And some have every right to camp etc, and trash the place!
If you don't like public..... move way out of town, don't come to town!
Suburbia.... we all have to put up with people living 10m away from us !
But some think money buys exemption! ( self proclaimed Nobels) Nobbs!
We all like privacy, security etc.
We build fences and boarders! Human nature.
But bigL, your pathetic wine about " who governs how many can camp there" etc.
Is just a lame arse old woman crap excuse of rejection!
You should never been allowed to lease it in the first place PERIOD!
Thank God a government has realised mistakes made from past.
I can picture you dressing up in camo gear, sneaking around taking video and pictures of people camping...... on land YOU DO NOT OWN!
But portraying it as an evil!
Your a nutter! lol

Last edited by mudgee hunter (17 October 2020 09:55 pm)


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#20

Northeast
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18 October 2020 10:02 am

Mudgee, some of your comments suggest that you have a view that almost everyone does exactly the right thing. From a person who lives in a high tourist area, this is simply not the case.

"Not rubbish the place etc!" Yes, I suppose this was the case in medieval England. Things are a little different now. It seems that many like to leave rubbish around on public and private land.

"If you don't like public..... move way out of town, don't come to town!" That is often the exact reason why people buy their own little piece of paradise - yet the public still arrive and want use of that paradise.

"Suburbia.... we all have to put up with people living 10m away from us !" That is the choice of people that live there.

"But some think money buys exemption!" Um, shouldn't it? Isn't that the reason we can buy or lease things? If I lease a building in the middle of Bendigo, doesn't that mean that I should have sole access to it? If there is a tap in that building does that mean anyone should be allowed access to re-fill their water bottle? I know this is an extreme example but buying or leasing something does provide exemptions - otherwise everybody would be allowed to go absolutely anywhere.

"You should never been allowed to lease it in the first place PERIOD!" That may be the case but let's look at the alternate scenario. There are many, many kilometres of stream side in my area (N.E Vic) that are on crown land that have no leases and are 'maintained' by the relevant land manager. Any guesses as to what vegetation covers 95% of that stream side? Blackberries, blackberries and more blackberries. Can you camp there? No, too many blackberries. Can you fish there? No, too many blackberries. Are these areas actually looked after by the 'land manager'? No.

However, I will use a relatives area as an example. He does have a riverside property with about 500 metres of excellent river frontage. But it was always excellent. When he purchased this property 40 years ago it was covered thick in blackberries. He hacked a path with a machete just so they could reach the river for a swim. And then, over many years he slowly cleaned the entire length of the river up. He planted natives, he repaired banks after floods, he fenced off stock from the river, native grasses have appeared that haven't been seen for decades - all the while he payed for the access to this piece of land that gave him no monetary gain. It gave him thousands of hours of work and thousands of dollars in costs. It also gave his family a place they could enjoy without 'Joe Public', a place for friends and many, many visitors that he consented to being there a place to camp and fish. People he trusted to not leave rubbish, to not leave gates open, to not bother his stock or machinery that were on his freehold. Over the time he has let a few unknowns on (he is a very generous person) and some did the right thing and others did not. When the latter asked for access again they got a simple "No".

Now isn't that a system that works? Or should he spend those thousands of dollars and hours for no financial gain so that every single person, good or bad, can use that area to camp with as many people as they want for as long as they want? Surely he can't be expected to pay the lease fees AND wear the cost of maintaining the area if it is going to be open slather and he has absolutely no say in the matter at all?

But you know what the alternative is? Without that lease and without that maintenance it will revert (within a few short years) to that completely unaccessible, completely unusable stretch of river that no-one ever went to. Honestly, I have travelled much of Australia and this spot is an absolute gem...but it didn't get that way by a fluke of nature.

"on land YOU DO NOT OWN!" Lease holders know they don't own the land. Isn't it great that they do all of this work even though they don't own it? And all of the work they do is currently able to be utilised by those that are prepared to walk along the river point from a public access point, canoe or boat down the river, they can stop off with a picnic basket, fish, birdwatch - whatever. They just can't camp without permission.

"Your a nutter!" People have varying views and they come to these views for many reasons. Some can see both sides of the story, some would like a little from column A and a little from column B and some have views that do not take into account the needs, costs or work that others may have so that they can gain what they want from the situation. Resorting to name calling is generally a good sign that the arguments one is making are not standing up to scrutiny.

JD3 - "some rule or legality that allowed access to X amount of "chains" along rivers and creeks in Victoria". Yep, you are spot on. The public are allowed to walk along something like a 20 metre wide strip of land from the river bank to fish, etc as long as they access from a public access point (bridge, reserve, park, etc). They can also only walk along leasehold frontage. There are some (but very few) freehold sections of river frontage.

Cheers, N.E.

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#21

mudgee hunter
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Joined: 02 January 2017
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18 October 2020 10:31 am

Bigl .... "I lived in WA for 17 years, heavily involved in exploration, represented multinationals to major WA players.. know just a tad more than you ever will."

So you where totally fine with going onto other farmers "pastoral leased land" in WA for 17 years and making camp and digging up "THEIR LAND " mines on their leases hey!!!
FOR YOUR PROFIT!
Way more environmental damage than any fisherman/ camper.
So it dose make you sound like a hyprocrict, now the roles are are reversed when even on a lesser scale to what you did!


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#22

MegsyB007
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18 October 2020 05:13 pm

I don't know about others, but I tend to find camping spots that are a bit more 'environmentally pleasing' than areas where cattle have access to the waterways.

And they say that prospectors cause damage to the banks, and turbidity in the water and can't prospect there... hmm

1603001444_cattle_access_to_rivers.jpg

1603001461_cattle_access_point.jpg

1603001477_cattle_access_point_2.jpg

1603001498_cow_patty.jpg

Just my two cents worth - not looking for an argument. smile

Cheers,
Megsy


The Australian bush - love it - take care of it.

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#23

Tathradj
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From: Now in Bega, NSW
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18 October 2020 06:00 pm

Torren title goes to the bank or high water mark.

Went out the window when we converted to such.

There is a lot in this so do your researh.

" some rule or legality that allowed access to X amount of "chains" along rivers and creeks in Victoria "


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Aldi, A Prado 4x4, A'Van Cruiseliner and a heck of a lot of determination.
Most importantly, A lot of Good Honest Friends. Maybe one day Lucky.

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#24

Manpa
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From: Sheidow Park, SA
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18 October 2020 06:05 pm

I reckon there’s more than two cents worth in that last shot Megsy but I’ve lost touch with cow manure pricing! playful


One of these days Ma!

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#25

Deepseeker
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18 October 2020 06:08 pm

I was thinking the same thing Megsy. I've seen similar before too, with sheep having completely flattened and degraded a creek bank to the point of it being an absolute mess. I have no beef with farmers (no pun intended), but I don't think anybody should have exclusive access to something that they don't own, in the same way as we are not denied access to the ocean. If access to Crown owned land near rivers is an issue with land holders, then maybe it's time for an easement somewhere that will enable public access?

I have heard (that's Heard by the way, not Herd smile ) the argument trotted out many times by farmers that they feed us, clothe us, keep the economy and the balance of payments healthy etc, etc. But so do a lot of industries, and in a post-covid economy with very little income coming from international tourism for quite some time in the foreseeable future, it makes sense that if we want to help local businesses then initiatives such as making rivers more accessible to everyone is something that can help. Everything from camping gear, 4wd and automotive accessories, fishing gear, prospecting gear, local food shops, independent supermarkets, fuel supplies, accommodation, and the list goes on (yes accommodation. I personally prefer a B&B or motel if I go overnight somewhere nowadays). smile

Last edited by Deepseeker (18 October 2020 06:11 pm)


Try hard not to offend. Try even harder not to be offended.

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