paypal question

Did anyone bother to check her selling history? If she indeed even had one.

Must have been a first time seller yeh?

Lured in by a sort after product.

If its too good to be true, it usually is.

I usually don't purchase anything over 1k, I mostly buy pumps hoses and fittings from eBay and other general crap!
Mrs dwt done all the setting up for me, I'm about as bright as a smashed light bulb on these computer thingees :/
(maybe it's my extreme old age)
Never had an issue with any items I've purchased, I always do a seller search before purchasing, i generally stay clear if the seller is a one off random, and as for selling stuff on eBay, well I just avoid it, as some of the above posts have stated with their own horror stories I don't won't to even go there, lotta junk laying around home! :8

Numb_Thumb said:

Did anyone bother to check her selling history? If she indeed even had one.

Must have been a first time seller yeh?

Lured in by a sort after product.

If its too good to be true, it usually is.

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She had a good selling history but obviously went bad and decided it would be an easy way to rip people off. It sure was.

dwt said:

I usually don't purchase anything over 1k, I mostly buy pumps hoses and fittings from eBay and other general crap!
Mrs dwt done all the setting up for me, I'm about as bright as a smashed light bulb on these computer thingees :/
(maybe it's my extreme old age)
Never had an issue with any items I've purchased, I always do a seller search before purchasing, i generally stay clear if the seller is a one off random, and as for selling stuff on eBay, well I just avoid it, as some of the above posts have stated with their own horror stories I don't won't to even go there, lotta junk laying around home! :8

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It can be a good way to get rid of stuff DWT but you do need to be a bit careful.

Heatho said:

dwt said:

I usually don't purchase anything over 1k, I mostly buy pumps hoses and fittings from eBay and other general crap!
Mrs dwt done all the setting up for me, I'm about as bright as a smashed light bulb on these computer thingees :/
(maybe it's my extreme old age)
Never had an issue with any items I've purchased, I always do a seller search before purchasing, i generally stay clear if the seller is a one off random, and as for selling stuff on eBay, well I just avoid it, as some of the above posts have stated with their own horror stories I don't won't to even go there, lotta junk laying around home! :8

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It can be a good way to get rid of stuff DWT but you do need to be a bit careful.

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But I kind of like my bower bird skills! :lol:

Ebay/paypal will *always* side with the buyer as they have their "paypal buyer protection" unless the fraudster is very stupid/unlucky. I have not read a single story where a seller has won a dispute. I read where someone was selling adaptor cables for the F1A4 on ebay. Buyer bought a cable and was happy, but then got the detector modded so he no longer required the cable. You guessed it, they put a claim in saying the cable was faulty, and got a full refund a month after purchase.

In summary
EBAY - buying is fine as there is no way you can loose if you use paypal (buyer protection) - Don't sell unless you can cover the cost of the loss (ebay stores factor the cost into the business, just like a bricks and mortar shop factors in shop lifting) or be prepared to take the risk

GUMTREE - Buy/sell in person *only* as there are no paypal protection for the buyer even if paying with paypal. Auspost cash on delivery is a safer option but as the seller you can still be left paying COD,postage plus return costs if the buyer pulls out (but as least you get your item back), or risk getting a box with a brick in it as the buyer (which does happen).

cazalla said:

I sold an iphone on ebay a number of years ago, used (described as used, not new) but in perfect condition as I kept it in a case and I look after the things that I own. A few weeks later, I get an email from ebay where the buyer claimed the item was not as described and wanted a refund. I asked that the phone be returned because you don't really have a choice regardless of whether the buyer changed their mind or not, and I received it back with the back smashed - the buyer had clearly dropped it. I counter-claimed and provided evidence from the listing which showed the device was in perfect condition prior to being sent but ebay still found in the buyers favour and automatically withdrew the cash from my paypal and the rest from my bank account, leaving me with the cost of repair to boot.

Waiting to verifying a payment does nothing when the buyer is intent on defrauding you. They can freeze your paypal account, freeze the funds, and if you're naive enough to link your bank account to paypal as I was, they can debit your bank account for whatever amount they wish at anytime if they decide you're the one at fault. If you think they got it wrong, their response is for you to contact the police which ignores the fact they are overworked and not going to put much time into chasing up a broken phone when it is really my word against the buyer's word.

I only buy and sell things for cash on gumtree, despite it being an ebay owned property, they can't claw back the funds and the buyer can't defraud you simply because they damaged the item within the first few weeks.

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In that instance I would make an insurance claim on the item being damaged whilst in transit (despite it being broken after the fact), and let that cover whatever costs that were involved vs allowing it get to the stage of paypal taking money out of your account, or losing out on paypal dispute. I always make a point of insuring all items sold via ebay for their replacement amount, then at least you have something to fall back on, especially when you know the buyer is favoured in such situations.

Last time I had a message from a buyer claiming an item was recieved broken, the insurance covered everything, even though I knew the item was well packaged and in no way would have been recieved in such state. It was most likely just a scam on the buyers part to keep the item plus get paid cash from the insurance, but at least I wasn't left out of pocket, and I avoided any negative feedback.. At no stage was the buyer required to present the "damaged" item for the claim to progress.

Paypal can be very useful at times, I recently bought over $500 worth of goods from a seller, and nearly 70 days later I still had not recieved anything despite many empty promises and stalling from the buyer. I opened a dispute, and before it ever got to making an actual claim, the seller issued a full refund.

If you do use gumtree, please do not allow the buyer to pick up from your home address, organise a mutually agreed meeting place to avoid having disgruntled buyers, scammers or thieves turning up on your doorstep.

Numb_Thumb said:

cazalla said:

I use eBay as a buyer but I don't have a PayPal account due to the massive amounts of fraud and chargebacks that go on. Sellers basically have little to no recourse if the buyer is intent on scamming you. When I buy on eBay, I use guest checkout and pay with my credit card because I can at least call my bank and even then, it's only items of small value. If you think PayPal will protect you with security on high value transactions, you're dreaming. The internet is littered with stories and I'm personally out $500 via PayPal due to fraud.

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Have been buying and selling on ebay for over 10 years now using PP and have never had an issue.

The internet is littered with horror stories yes, but it is also littered with brain-dead fools who know little about how the game works!

Remember you are responsible for protecting yourself onlilne and just because PP offer secure transactions, this doesn't mean you should be clicking the mouse with your little head instead of your big head.

Sorry, but if your out of pocket because of a fraudulent transaction, its probably your fault.
Most would never be willing to admit that.

Cheers

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you cant be serious, paypal and ebay work together to make it very hard for sellers and buyers to get a fair go, its all tilted in buyers favour, ive been using paypal for around 10 years too and ive been dudded as a seller on several occasions, last time was by Sydney Speed Supplies(procomp distributers) i got ripped on a holley carby as a buyer sent faulty carb back and never recieved a refund,The last time ripped as a seller was 3 years ago when a XY GT steering wheel id restored was sold for $1200 got email saying thanks 4 days later , then after about a week i recieved goods not as described refund in part request, i said stuff that send me some pics and i will either full refund when its returned or no deal, long story short i went to pay something with my paypal and my account with $1700 was frozen,i contacted them and had to refund $300 for horn rim rubber not working which id stated clearly in ad as faulty due to hard from age, SO please ebay and paypal will rip you by not defending you as buyers and sellers if it suits them

Just bought a detector off gumtree, paid via paypal, $2500, no problems, seller was stung about $74 which I offered to pay, but he was happy to pick it up.
Thanks for the info from all the replies, dave.

i forgot to say, even though ive been ripped by them i still use paypal as its the easiest payment system in the world and only one that is seen as safe even though they are a bit useless an ebay they are good and convenient fairly safe in most cases ,

Orgone500 said:

GUMTREE - Buy/sell in person *only* as there are no paypal protection for the buyer even if paying with paypal.

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I agree with this davent, if buy from gumtree ( have done a bit ), I only purchace if I get to see the item in person, and if I'm happy after a demo of the item, ill then pay. Via gumtree, I'd be paying for insurance, tracking etc so make sure that's paid for mate.

orgone500 said:

GUMTREE - Buy/sell in person *only* as there are no paypal protection for the buyer even if paying with paypal.

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Not true. PayPal offer buyer protection outside of eBay, too. A story:

A couple of months ago, I sold 2 detector coils on Gumtree to an interstate buyer. He paid me using PayPal, which I was okay with, because I saw it as a safe option for both of us. He was a bit strange from start, with many strange questions, but I put it down to him being a self-confessed newbie. After all, I had his name, address, and he had been contacting me via a mobile phone for which I had the number.

We agreed on a price, and I packed the coils up and went to the post office. I decided to pay for insurance, just in case something went afoul during delivery. Because of the insurance, I also had to pay for signature on delivery. If I hadn't have taken out insurance, I wouldn't have paid the $2.95 for signature on delivery. Just as well it happened that way, though...

All seemed fine. I let the buyer know that they'd been sent fully insured, with Sig on delivery, and gave him the tracking number. He thanked me for my efforts and couldn't wait to try them out. Well, 12 days after receiving the PayPal payment, I got an email from PayPal stating that they have put a hold on the funds (which up until then were sitting there, fully cleared, in my PayPal account, and had been for nearly 2 weeks). Here is an exerpt from the email:

Your buyer's bank asked us to reverse the following payment. We're reviewing this and we'll update you within 10 working days. We'll email you again if we need any information from you during the review.

We've placed a temporary hold on this payment until we finish the investigation

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Then, later in the day, I received another email. An excerpt:

Although we're required to return this payment to the buyer's bank, we won't debit your PayPal account balance if you meet the eligibility requirements for PayPal Seller Protection. One of the requirements is to provide us with a valid proof of shipment. You can find more details about the required information in the Resolution Centre

Please provide your information by {date removed}. If we don't receive your response by this date, this case will be closed and the transaction amount (less any previous refunds) will be debited from your PayPal balance.

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PayPal gave me a very short time frame (7 days, but in reality it was less, as they sent this email on a Saturday evening) to prove my innocence, or they would refund the money to the buyer and automatically close the case.

I found my post office receipt with the tracking number, etc, on it, and of course: it was almost completely faded and illigible.

Luckily, I hadn't deleted the text conversation I had with the buyer, which included the tacking number. Phew. "All is ok," I thought.

I then took a screen shot of the Australia Post website tracking page, showing that the items had been delivered and signed for, and uploaded it to the very confusing PayPal dispute page.

I assumed that this would be enough. I mean, the items had been delivered, yes?

No word from PayPal for a couple of days. 2 days later, I get almost the same email from PayPal saying that what I sent was insufficient.

I called the buyer to see what was going on, but no answer. I sent a text and got a reply maybe the next day, apologising, saying that he was out of mobile range. I asked if the coils had turned up as indicated on the Australia Post website tracking page, and he said that they had. I asked if he was happy, and no response. Oh, yeah - he is out of mobile service.

I took an hour off work for a trip to the post office to see if the postmaster could help me out. Of course, he was off for the day and none of the employees knew if there was anything else they could do to find out more info. In the meantime, I had sent and received a few more text messages to/from the buyer. He told me that the coils were good, blah blah. When I asked him why PayPal had received instructions to refund his payment, he disappeared and stopped all contact. Surprise...

Luckily, the post office manager was back at work the next day. Another hour off work that I don't get paid for, and he punched the tracking number into the computer and brought up his tracking info, which, not surprisingly, is more detailed than the public website. His screen showed that the recipient had indeeed singed his name to having received the coils. No doubt about it. The manager printed that info out, stamped it, signed it, sealed it. I took a photo of that and uploaded it to the PayPal dispute page. I also took screen shots of the text messages from the buyer, saying he was pleased with the coils, which showed his phone number, and uploaded those.

By the way, in the correspondence from PayPal, I was continually reminded that if I provided false information, I could be charged with perjury.

Finally, 6 days later, on a Sunday (9pm, no less), I received an email from PayPal:

Thanks for your patience during our review of your bank reversal case. The hold on this reversed transaction has been removed and the payment is now available in your PayPal account. This case is now closed

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Woopee.

I'm lucky that I wasn't relying on that money - which I thought was mine - to pay bills, rent, mortgage, whatever, or I would have been totally stuffed.

So yeah, the buyer is still protected by PayPal, even outside of eBay.

As for the seller: guilty until proven innocent.

It made me think: I had just come back from a month overseas. If, for example, I had sold the coils before I left, and was overseas when the dispute was lodged and the funds put on hold, there would have been NO WAY that I could have proven my innocence within the time frame allowed, as all I had access to was the Australia Post website, which showed that the items had been delivered, and which was obviously not enough. I would have lost my money. Also, if the post office manager had been on holidays for a few days during that time, and I had missed the deadline, again - I would have lost the money. Same scenario if I had deleted all traces of the tracking number or receipt.

For the seller, PayPal is very risky.

For a dodgy con artist buyer, it must be heaven. All the buyer has to do us lodge a dispute. Then the seller has to jump through hoops, and fast. If the seller is not quick enough to prove innocence, the buyer keeps the items and gets the money.

Yep, sellers get royally screwed, but in this case it was the bank that caused the issue. "Your buyer's bank asked us to reverse the following payment." - Paypal only acted in the gumtree transaction because the paypal account was linked to a credit card so the bank actually initiated the charge back, not paypal. (Don't ever link paypal with a savings account). Paypal would have just passed your evidence onto the bank. At least the bank took notice of it, paypal would have just screwed you over.

https://help.gumtree.com.au/knowledgebase.php?article=330
As a buyer, do I have buyer protection when using PayPal?
Currently there is no buyer protection whilst using PayPal as a payment option on Gumtree.

AtomRat said:

Shame that some bother to even figure out some of this crap to fraud someone of their cash in anyway. I always mark items as non-refundable..just as if I were having a garage sale. Just gotta be careful and make sure you protect yourself from the trickery the best you can.

It doesn't make sense that ebay didn't resolve this correctly and as its $500, I'd be bringing a lot more debate to the board of decisions, but it is hard to proove the phone wasn't in this condition before it was sent. Postage service could be to blame along the way ( yeah I know..doubt it and I'm certainly not trying to bend stories here ) ..but not every item I've recieved has turned up in one piece due to incorrect handling.

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I send stuff and have it insured and only use registered mail with tracking numbers . Just in case it does get broken along the way or lost .

orgone500 said:

Yep, sellers get royally screwed, but in this case it was the bank that caused the issue. "Your buyer's bank asked us to reverse the following payment." - Paypal only acted in the gumtree transaction because the paypal account was linked to a credit card so the bank actually initiated the charge back, not paypal. (Don't ever link paypal with a savings account). Paypal would have just passed your evidence onto the bank. At least the bank took notice of it, paypal would have just screwed you over.

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Yes, you are right. I actually missed that detail until today. It turns out that PayPal apparently debited the wrong account on the buyer's end. Buyer contacted his bank, bank contacted PayPal, PayPal decided to try to get me to lay for the error.

However, as far as PayPal not covering purchases outside of eBay: just before end of last year, I boight somethong through Guntree and paid with PayPal. Seller went AWOL. I couldn't contact him. I lodged a case with PayPal, and a few days later, I had the money back ($1500).