Gardening

Moneybox · Dec 13, 2019

We live on the little blue square right in a Big Bell gold mining lease. Of course we're in a residential area on freehold land but being a mining lease I guess every time I step outside and take a pick to the garden I'm breaking the law?

I've been using it as an excuse to avoid the gardening but I see Mrs M out there attacking the bougainvillea. That's got to be allowed because she's not disturbing the ground.

Next thing I see her in the front garden with shovel in hand, obviously breaking the rules, sinking a frangipani into the ground. Now what's good for the goose has to be good for the gander right?

Mrs M has hinted a dozen times or more that she would like to have a fish tank. Well with Christmas right around the corner I thought that might be a really nice gift. The biggest problem was the 500km between here and the nearest pet shop. The only solution I could see was to dig a hole in the garden for the fish.

I found Zimba quite handy to sink the hole and then loading the trailer but have you ever tried to shovel the dirt out of a 3m x 1.5m trailer? The first load takes a while and by about load 10 you tend to wonder if it was such a good idea. I've got to have a word with that friend of mine who lent me the box trailer. I'm going to request a hydraulic tipper next time

.

I've been doing a lot of googling and watching youtube videos. Water quality is really important for your barramundi so I had to run a few soil tests.

The last thing you'd want is some old metal contaminating the water. That rich red soil looked like it could have been high in minerals so I checked it thoroughly.

I even picked up a nail so it was worth the exercise.

Now I've got to the point where I think it should accommodate quite a few fish but some of the soil below the cap rock looks to be quite porous so I have to come up with some way to seal the surface.

I had originally decided to mix some concrete and render the surface before painting it with liquid rubber. I'm not familiar with concreting processes so now I'm considering using a lot of pegs (like tent pegs) to fasten shade cloth to all exposed surfaces and then sealing that with liquid rubber.

I might just have to sleep on it.... :zzz:

Moneybox · Dec 15, 2019

I was hoping somebody would have jumped in with a bright suggestion overnight but you must have all slept as well. Never mind I worked it out. I'm going to render the surface with spray concrete. I'll have to carefully wash away the very loose dirt and then after making up some sort of device to spray the cement I'll give it a squirt. Once the surface is stabilized I can render it with a better coat of concrete before a final seal with liquid rubber.

Nothing is likely to happen for a while because I have to take a trip to Geraldton for cement :/ .

Nightjar · Dec 15, 2019

Maybe line it with the heavy black plastic sheeting before rendering?

Deepseeker · Dec 15, 2019

Nice work Moneybox. You'll have to have at least three tanks for Barra, as they will attack and eat each other at the slightest perceived difference in size.
I haven't kept Barra as I'm in vic and I'm too far south, but I kept Murray Cod in an Aquaponics System for a few years, and in much the same way it becomes last fish standing, long before they get to a decent edible size.

Cod only have to think the other fish will fit in their mouth and it's over, but Barra in Commercial systems are constantly graded all the time too. I got around it for a while. I kept 6 good healthy Cod in the main 1500 Ltr tank that had the Murray Cod, 30 odd Silver Perch, and a Dozen or so Eel-Tailed Catfish (Tandanus), along with about 30 Yabbies in Floating Edu's. Everyone played nicely until the Cod put on a few millimeters and the Silver Perch count started to drop, as some of the Cod started to get bigger quicker than the rest.

So, I took the three largest Cod out and put them in the Sump tank (I ran 4 grow beds with Scoria, using a Flood/Drain Cycle regulated by Bell Syphons). The Sump tank held another thousand Litres in the ground under the grow beds, so I put the 3 largest Cod in there with a couple of Tandanus (Tandanus look after themselves, Big nasty Mildly venomous spine on their dorsal fin that they extend up when threatened, that hurts real bad if it spikes anyone or anything). It still eventually came down to last man standing 3,2,1, and then continued on as I had to remove the other Cod from the main tank as they grew. Overcome the size grading and you might have some luck.

Even so, you'll need to exchange the water al least 1 1/2 times per hour to keep the Ammonia levels reasonable (Ammonia goes up, depletes oxygen, damages fish gills, they die). The Ammonia though can be your friend if you can filter it through Clay balls (expensive) or Scoria from somewhere (big surface area with all the porous holes). Nitro Bacter will set up home in the system naturally over days or weeks before you put your fish in, and plants will grow stupid on the Ammonium Nitrate that the bacteria have converted the Ammonia into, and which is harmless to fish. Beans, Tomatoes, Cucumbers, Fruit etc etc. I miss my system bad, but having to move where I am now meant finding another hobby and new friends. And here I am, hunting nuggies with you guys :Y:

-D.S

P.S. You definitely want to line that hole with something like a pool liner, as otherwise you may find it hard to control pH as well as water quality, and trace elements. In the ground though is the absolute best way to maintain a stable temperature on Hot days and Cold nights. Any fish doesn't like sudden changes, and they also emit more Ammonia when they are stressed, and the temp of the water is also related to the amount of Ammonia fish can tolerate, and how much Oxygen the water can hold. Concrete is a no-no as you will fight PH for years, although there is a possibility of sealing it with something, or once again putting a pool liner over it. Otherwise your PH will always keep creeping up and you'll be forever adding acid to bring it down again.

Manpa · Dec 15, 2019

What about liner they use in leeching ponds.

Moneybox · Dec 15, 2019

Nightjar said:
Maybe line it with the heavy black plastic sheeting before rendering?

Peter I don't think I'll get away with plastic before the render because the render won't hang onto the plastic or the the plastic will just fall away with the weight of the wet render.

Ded Driver · Dec 15, 2019

add Bondcrete to your concrete mix. helps make it impervious. or get some proper concrete tanking sealer.

Moneybox · Dec 15, 2019

Deepseeker said:
Nice work Moneybox. You'll have to have at least three tanks for Barra, as they will attack and eat each other at the slightest perceived difference in size.
I haven't kept Barra as I'm in vic and I'm too far south, but I kept Murray Cod in an Aquaponics System for a few years, and in much the same way it becomes last fish standing, long before they get to a decent edible size.

Cod only have to think the other fish will fit in their mouth and it's over, but Barra in Commercial systems are constantly graded all the time too. I got around it for a while. I kept 6 good healthy Cod in the main 1500 Ltr tank that had the Murray Cod, 30 odd Silver Perch, and a Dozen or so Eel-Tailed Catfish (Tandanus), along with about 30 Yabbies in Floating Edu's. Everyone played nicely until the Cod put on a few millimeters and the Silver Perch count started to drop, as some of the Cod started to get bigger quicker than the rest.

So, I took the three largest Cod out and put them in the Sump tank (I ran 4 grow beds with Scoria, using a Flood/Drain Cycle regulated by Bell Syphons). The Sump tank held another thousand Litres in the ground under the grow beds, so I put the 3 largest Cod in there with a couple of Tandanus (Tandanus look after themselves, Big nasty Mildly venomous spine on their dorsal fin that they extend up when threatened, that hurts real bad if it spikes anyone or anything). It still eventually came down to last man standing 3,2,1, and then continued on as I had to remove the other Cod from the main tank as they grew. Overcome the size grading and you might have some luck.

Even so, you'll need to exchange the water al least 1 1/2 times per hour to keep the Ammonia levels reasonable (Ammonia goes up, depletes oxygen, damages fish gills, they die). The Ammonia though can be your friend if you can filter it through Clay balls (expensive) or Scoria from somewhere (big surface area with all the porous holes). Nitro Bacter will set up home in the system naturally over days or weeks before you put your fish in, and plants will grow stupid on the Ammonium Nitrate that the bacteria have converted the Ammonia into, and which is harmless to fish. Beans, Tomatoes, Cucumbers, Fruit etc etc. I miss my system bad, but having to move where I am now meant finding another hobby and new friends. And here I am, hunting nuggies with you guys :Y:

-D.S

P.S. You definitely want to line that hole with something like a pool liner, as otherwise you may find it hard to control pH as well as water quality, and trace elements. In the ground though is the absolute best way to maintain a stable temperature on Hot days and Cold nights. Any fish doesn't like sudden changes, and they also emit more Ammonia when they are stressed, and the temp of the water is also related to the amount of Ammonia fish can tolerate, and how much Oxygen the water can hold. Concrete is a no-no as you will fight PH for years, although there is a possibility of sealing it with something, or once again putting a pool liner over it. Otherwise your PH will always keep creeping up and you'll be forever adding acid to bring it down again.

Yes D.S I went deep to try to beat the heat and cold. Sometimes the severe extremes come quickly and linger for a while. Above ground is just looking for trouble. This tank will end up at least 8000L so we might actually partition it when needed. I'm really looking forward to getting it underway.

I ordered this today. I intend to spray the surface with concrete to stabilize it and trowel it where I can. Hopefully give it another coat then and perhaps with a fibrous reinforcing. I've already got some liquid rubber that I bought to coat the upper half of the bus before covering it with a UV reflective coating. The rubber is food safe so should be good for the fish.

Moneybox · Dec 15, 2019

I noticed the topsoil was trying to break away along the side of the driveway so I went looking for some way to stabilize it.

It started out a little dangerously. I backed the quad down the too-steep ramp, as I got to the bottom I realized that the trailer was close so I hit the brake. The wheels stopped but the quad and I kept going until the rear box was laying squarely on the ground. Luckily it stopped right on its tail with me still in the saddle. I had to scramble off and then shove it back on its wheels, no damage done but Mrs M wanted me to do it again for the camera :8

A quick trip to Cue-bunno and I came up with a really heavy train rail. It was a bit of a challenge to load up but a trolley jack and a couple of rollers did the trick.

Even unloading it tested the load carrying capacity of the little CAT.

By the end of the day I had it sitting nicely level and ready to concrete into place.

Bobh · Dec 16, 2019

Many years ago I spent time assisting friend building ferro cement yacht and it is thankfully still afloat today. He added a powder to the cement mix to ensure 100% waterproof. I think the material was called "posulin" or something similar. Your Local bulk concrete supplier should have what's available nowadays.

RM Outback · Dec 16, 2019

To seal leaking tanks I've used a product called Xypex these people know concrete it's there business too :Y:

https://www.xypex.com.au/

Moneybox · Dec 17, 2019

Thanks guys for your concrete sealing tips. I don't think it's important here because after reading Deepseeker's post I'll be careful to keep the water away from the concrete. The reason I need concrete is to stabilize the loose soil around the tank. When I started to dig I hit rock at about 200mm down. I thought it was going to be a struggle sinking the hole and even bought a ripper for the little excavator and a jackhammer for the really tough bits. As I went deeper it got easier. The cap rock is only 200-300mm deep and below that the soil is surprisingly loose. It has scattered rock but in some areas the soil won't even stand on a vertical edge. I'm going to gently hose it down to wash away the very loose dirt and then spray the surface with a thin layer of concrete. Once I have a solid surface to work with hopefully I can render it with a trowel although I'm not an experienced concrete worker. Hopefully I'm not too old to learn :|

I've just ordered this concrete reinforcement fibre. I do have chicken wire but I think this might be easier to use. Then once I have a good solid surface to work with I intend to spray/roll/brush it with liquid rubber. That should look after the water sealing and provide insulation for the fish from the concrete.

Moneybox · Dec 17, 2019

Bobh said:
Many years ago I spent time assisting friend building ferro cement yacht and it is thankfully still afloat today. He added a powder to the cement mix to ensure 100% waterproof. I think the material was called "posulin" or something similar. Your Local bulk concrete supplier should have what's available nowadays.

Bobh, I hope I can pull fish like that one on your avatar out of my tank by this time next year

LONEWOLF · Dec 17, 2019

RM Outback said:
To seal leaking tanks I've used a product called Xypex these people know concrete it's there business too :Y:

https://www.xypex.com.au/

They certainly are the Experts... I have used many xypex products and was an 'Approved applicator' of their products. Some of the training videos would blow you away with what their products would do.. Patch and plug is their best product but with all things xypex, its very expensive...

LW....

goody2shoes · Dec 17, 2019

Moneybox where are you going to get the water to fill that big fish pool?

If you are going to wait until it rains you will be waiting a while....

Goody

nucopia · Dec 17, 2019

Not sure if just spraying a coat of cement on the loose soil and after it dries, placing chicken wire and rendering that with concrete and the reinforcement fibre will be strong enough to hold the weight of the water in the tank.
I think you will find the weight and water preasure will compress and displace the surounding soil and the tank will crack.
When i have built septic tanks or biogas tanks in the PI where the soil is porous and there is also ground water during the wet that can cause seepage and or undermine the soil surrounding the tank and make both that tank and surrounding soil unstable or deminish the tanks load bearing capacity, we use deformed bars and 3 inch cement blocks to make a very robust tank.
What you could consider using instead of chicken wire is , deformed bar and rienforced steel mesh, the type used in driveways ..

A simple effective solution would be to buy an inground pool liner and throw that in the hole.once its filled with water, the weight of the water would exert force in all directions onto the soil and stabilize the soil.

Greenhornet_au · Dec 17, 2019

I'm with Nucopia here, there is a reason that there is a lot of reo in swimming pool walls.

Water weight and soil movement, and they WILL still crack and leak, you need reo mesh in there or alternatively a heavy flexible
membrane product to form the pond walls, and cast a bond bean around the hole at the top.
.
Great project :Y:
.
A note aside from your project.
I have a large precast cellar and garage that has xypex in the concrete that I specified, the concrete engineer came to site to
find out why I specified the product.
He was impressed, just didnt expect it to be such a big hole in the ground and me to know what I needed.
12mx 6.5mx 3m deep with same size garage on top.
No leaks in OR out, but for a fish bowl it may be toxic in the water to the fish or humans if eaten - check that if using it.

Moneybox · Dec 17, 2019

Sounds like good advice but my biggest problem is that it's difficult to get nice neat sides to pin the mesh to. The cap rock is solid and wide spread. Everywhere I dig here I hit the same sheet of rock 200-250mm from the surface. When I dug the six holes for the shade sail it was just the same although it didn't seem so loose underneath. We don't get a lot of ground water here so I'm not expecting trouble for that direction.

The liquid rubber is meant to form a membrane not unlike laying a plastic liner inside only it will be firmly bonded into place. I'm counting on the fibrous concrete taking the water pressure a bit like a fero cement yacht and the rubber taking care of any minor porosity.

I know I have a lot to learn hopefully it wont be an expensive lesson

Moneybox · Dec 17, 2019

goody2shoes said:
Moneybox where are you going to get the water to fill that big fish pool?

If you are going to wait until it rains you will be waiting a while....

Goody

A couple of days back as a storm was brewing I took a stroll down to the end of the street an onto the nearby goldfield. It was all of 200m to the closest well. I could see the water but because of the dark clouds and howling wind I couldn't gauge the depth. I've got to take another look because I might be able to draw good ground water for the initial fill.

nucopia · Dec 17, 2019

Maybe go down to the cue buno and look for old bricks.
You could place reinfored mesh on the floor and cement that in.
Then construct brick side walls with reo for reinforcment..if no bricks around , you could make cement bricks
Not hard to do and you can get a lot out of one bag of cement and screened sand ..which you have plenty of ..
Just need to make a mould which is not hard to do also, with some scrap wood to make the mould..

Another tip to look at, is not to make the fish tank too deep ..i know most of the free standing small tanks I have seen in the PI, are only 3 to 4 feet deep.

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