More on Bush Power

[condor22]

Jaros, from what I can see;

• $1,549 for a 100AH - Specs say 2000 cycles @ 100% DOC[/*]
• The Beta 100AH lead crystal (LC) is about $549 - Specs say 8-12 yrs useful life and can be 100% DOC[/*]
• A Full River Blue AGM 105AH is a bit over $400 - I got 10 yrs out of my last one @ approx 25% DOC[/*]

Comparrison -

The Lithium and LC have a usable 100AH, where the AGM is limited to about 25AH to get a similar life. So you would need 4 AGMs for the same usable @ approx $1,600, a lot more real estate and weight. So taking the AGM out of the mix and comparing Lithium to LC.

Looking at cost, the LiFePO4 is almost 3 times the price for a similar DOC capability. Here's a comparison chart (albeit from the LC web site)

I get a rough idea that a Li will cycle a bit more than double a LC. So lifespan comparison is 2 x LC to = 1 x Li = $1,100 to $1,549.

Weight - Lithium about 1/3 of an LC of similar AH.

The other thing to consider if changing to Lithium is; If your current 240VAC, DC-DC or Solar charging gear does not include Lithium, they will need replacing. Whereas if you currently have suitable gear for an AGM it will also suit the LC batteries and not need replacing.

"Horses for courses" - From my perspective (and I might add SWMBO) I've already invested a fair bit in what I have. The AGM in the Van and the GEL in the 4x4 work, do what I want and are in good condition. So when either of the batteries fail, I'll replace with a LC of the same AH. That way it will only be $150 or so more for twice the output and existing chargers will do the job.

If I were setting up from scratch, I'd go Lithium for sure, providing the boss approved, lol.

Not a perfect comparison, but, covers key points I hope..........

 

[Ridge Runner]

Jaros, from what I can see;

• $1,549 for a 100AH - Specs say 2000 cycles @ 100% DOC[/*]
• The Beta 100AH lead crystal (LC) is about $549 - Specs say 8-12 yrs useful life and can be 100% DOC[/*]
• A Full River Blue AGM 105AH is a bit over $400 - I got 10 yrs out of my last one @ approx 25% DOC[/*]

Comparrison -

The Lithium and LC have a usable 100AH, where the AGM is limited to about 25AH to get a similar life. So you would need 4 AGMs for the same usable @ approx $1,600, a lot more real estate and weight. So taking the AGM out of the mix and comparing Lithium to LC.

Looking at cost, the LiFePO4 is almost 3 times the price for a similar DOC capability. Here's a comparison chart (albeit from the LC web site)
https://www.prospectingaustralia.co...4010_schema-best-performing_tekengebied-1.jpg

I get a rough idea that a Li will cycle a bit more than double a LC. So lifespan comparison is 2 x LC to = 1 x Li = $1,100 to $1,549.

Weight - Lithium about 1/3 of an LC of similar AH.

The other thing to consider if changing to Lithium is; If your current 240VAC, DC-DC or Solar charging gear does not include Lithium, they will need replacing. Whereas if you currently have suitable gear for an AGM it will also suit the LC batteries and not need replacing.

"Horses for courses" - From my perspective (and I might add SWMBO) I've already invested a fair bit in what I have. The AGM in the Van and the GEL in the 4x4 work, do what I want and are in good condition. So when either of the batteries fail, I'll replace with a LC of the same AH. That way it will only be $150 or so more for twice the output and existing chargers will do the job.

If I were setting up from scratch, I'd go Lithium for sure, providing the boss approved, lol.

Not a perfect comparison, but, covers key points I hope..........

Absolutely, This is why I want them, AGM's like 14.8v and LC's Like 14.7v so no major investment is needed when it comes to charging them, and the less you discharge them the more cycles they have up to over 8000 cycles and due to the speed you can charge them at they would work wonders for me over here.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Strike a light my 2 X 150w panels just turn up, 8 bucks for next day delivery, Can't complain about that, :Y:

Jeez these are good ,In a darkened room I just shone a Torch on the wall and with it reflecting back on to the panel it was reading 4.3v

 

[Ded Driver]

Condor22, from an LC spec sheet. It isn't a traditional AGM, & the AGM charger current is
inadequate for the Boost charge phase that an LC requires periodically.
The LC needs 0.3xCapacity for boost, that is 30A for a 100Ah LC battery.
Whilst an LC does use a glass matt internally, it uses an entirely different electrolyte that 'crystalises'
quote from Betta LC data sheet;

 

[Ridge Runner]

Condor22, from an LC spec sheet. It isn't a traditional AGM, & the AGM charger current is
inadequate for the Boost charge phase that an LC requires periodically.
The LC needs 0.3xCapacity for boost, that is 30A for a 100Ah LC battery.
Whilst an LC does use a glass matt internally, it uses an entirely different electrolyte that 'crystalises'
quote from Betta LC data sheet;
https://www.prospectingaustralia.com/forum/img/member-images/12692/1569077642_lc_tech.jpg
https://www.prospectingaustralia.co..._betta_lcb_6-cnfj-100ah_datasheet_extract.jpg

So what happens if you use a 30Amp AGM Charger because the Volts are within 0.1v, Will that still work ??

Because if it does then my 26Amp NOCO would work on the 78Ah version. because it needs a minimum of 23.4A

J.

 

[Ded Driver]

yeah as I understand it, + or - a small voltage isn't as important as getting the right current into it.
On the side of the LC battery is printed the charge voltages for a range of temps.
In the graph in the pic of the spec sheet I posted above in #104, you can see the recommended charge voltage varies with temperature, thus giving a range of voltage. It is printed on the side of the battery in 3 ranges, 20-30C, 31-40C & 41-45C
The 20-30C range is stated at 14.4V - 14.8V, the spec sheet states a nominal 14.7V, so the voltage doesn't have to be exact.
As I understand it, the heavy current is required to re-crystalise the electrolyte as it charges.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Cool Well done, Thanks for that, So If a person goes to 2 X 100Ah then you would need a 60 Amp charger and 3 X 100Ah then ya going to need a 90/100 Amp Charger ?? As the minimum Current.

I wonder why the In Going Amps have to be so high for it to recover, maybe they have a lot higher resistance,

 

[Ded Driver]

EDIT
I got that the wrong way round
they do have a low internal resistance, & the electrolyte is different.
There is a write up on charging them by a UK business
http://lead-crystalbatteries.co.uk/technology/lead-crystal-battry-charging-technology
Note, there is an error in that write up
'Charge with a voltage 0.3 to 0.5 times the number of ampere hours'
should read 'charge with a Current 0.3 to 0.5....'

 

[ctxkid]

sentry is bluetooth , its built in , not an added cost !
makes Sentry lithium price much more acceptable !

 

[ctxkid]

The other thing to consider if changing to Lithium is; If your current 240VAC, DC-DC or Solar charging gear does not include Lithium, they will need replacing. Whereas if you currently have suitable gear for an AGM it will also suit the LC batteries and not need replacing.

incorrect !

Sentry and other top end lithium have smart bms !!
li-on charge setting is not optimum setting
i have done extensive experimentation with charging and discharging (amazing what you can do when someone hands you a lithium and says "knock yaself out testing it" so i did, although not literally knocking myself out , lol) and have found the my Victron charger does the job the best on standard 14.4v 15amp charge erfect: it will bulk then float the battery with a decreasing amperage till the battery is full then simply the BMS shuts down till needed.

i am working on a hot water service to use the unused energy

so i a nut shell , buy the best you can afford in Lithium and you have to cxhange nothing other than setting to standard flooded charge rate

my 50amp Sentry weighs 7kg and has more usable usable power than a 105amp agm that weighs 30kg.

Jaros asked about bluetooth , it is up to a $250 option for any battery installation , with Sentry it's built in :inlove:

 

[ctxkid]

Cool Well done, Thanks for that, So If a person goes to 2 X 100Ah then you would need a 60 Amp charger and 3 X 100Ah then ya going to need a 90/100 Amp Charger ?? As the minimum Current.

I wonder why the In Going Amps have to be so high for it to recover, maybe they have a lot higher resistance,

no !

i used to charge a bank of 6 agm's with 21amps , standard fast charge rate for an AGM is 25amps

 

[Ridge Runner]

Cool Well done, Thanks for that, So If a person goes to 2 X 100Ah then you would need a 60 Amp charger and 3 X 100Ah then ya going to need a 90/100 Amp Charger ?? As the minimum Current.

I wonder why the In Going Amps have to be so high for it to recover, maybe they have a lot higher resistance,

no !

i used to charge a bank of 6 agm's with 21amps , standard fast charge rate for an AGM is 25amps

You miss read my post, Lead Crystal Batteries have the same -ish Voltage Profile as an AGM "BUT" The Amps they Require to Charge is a lot higher than other batteries, Where your bank of 6 AGM's will happily except 21 AMP's, A Bank of 6 100Ah Lead Crystal Batteries would Require a Charge Rate of 180Amps as the bare minimum being a minimum of 30Amps for each Battery and a Maximum of 300Amps. and the 78Ah version would require a minimum of 23.4Amps and a Maximum of 39Amps.

The power reserve of Lead Crystal batteries means you can use up to 100% of it's power with Zero Damage.

 

[Ded Driver]

not quite right on the 100% RR
yes you can drain an LC 100% & recover it, & an occasional drain down to 80 or 90DOD wont do too much damage, BUT if you drain any battery 100% too many times you will shorten its life. The Betta spec chart shows the expected cycle life vs DOD
Its still a good idea to work to 50-60% DOD, but you have capacity to go further on occasions if needed without undue harm.
I stick to 40-50%, & occasionally make sure it goes 50% then give it a full wallop cycle charge.

DED

 

[ctxkid]

I made just over a kilowatt hour of electricity experimenting with hot water , good times

?

 

[ctxkid]

Dont believe minimum battery volts, it didnt happen

 

[Ridge Runner]

not quite right on the 100% RR
yes you can drain an LC 100% & recover it, & an occasional drain down to 80 or 90DOD wont do too much damage, BUT if you drain any battery 100% too many times you will shorten its life. The Betta spec chart shows the expected cycle life vs DOD
Its still a good idea to work to 50-60% DOD, but you have capacity to go further on occasions if needed without undue harm.
I stick to 40-50%, & occasionally make sure it goes 50% then give it a full wallop cycle charge.

DED

I didn't say drain it down to 100% every time, "I said you can use 100% of it's power" as when needed but that is not an every day cycle.

Well I seen a video by Andrew St Pierre White which is where I got my Info from and he happened to say that you could drain them right down, And he did Actually drain 2 X 78Ah LC batteries down to around 2V and then charged them up and within minutes they were taking in 40+A per hour, They charge really fast unlike any other battery I have ever seen,

But regardless of that no one in their right mind would drain a battery down that far, even down to 40% SOC is more than enough 60 to 70% SOC would be the norm that I would want to go and with a good charging system there is no reason to go below 85% SOC. on a good day.

 

[ctxkid]

2 volts is not 100% flat

enough solar and you only use the battery as a buffer :Y:

as for charge rate , Sentry lithium can charge at 45 amps erfect:

 

[Ridge Runner]

2 volts is not 100% flat

enough solar and you only use the battery as a buffer :Y:

as for charge rate , Sentry lithium can charge at 45 amps erfect:

Yeah that's right, but most 12v are considered dead at around 7 volts, The thing with Lead crystal batteries the higher the A/H the higher the Minimum charge rate must be, a 78 ah must be above 23.4 a 100 ah must be above 30Ah and a 150 must be above 45Ah and a 200Ah must be above 60Ah and if they made a 500Ah Battery then it would have to be charged at a minimum of 150 Amps per hour with a maximum of 250 amps per hour.

The biggest issue with the LC Batteries is finding a Charger that has the right Voltage profile with the Amperage to suit the amount of batteries within the bank.

 

[BigWave]

Guys. please get your units correct.
A/H should read Ah etc.
I have read so much trash here.
Amps per hour is idiotic.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Guys. please get your units correct.
A/H should read Ah etc.
I have read so much trash here.
Amps per hour is idiotic.

What does it matter, Amps per Hour is not idiotic at all, Because before the world bastardized the English language when buying a Battery Charger a person would go in to the Store and ask for a charger that puts out XYZ "Amps Per Hour" Or If you want to get technical about it That would be said as DC AMPERES PER HOUR, Not Ah or A/H or A/h.

Get your units correct. no matter which term is used I am sure that 99.99% of people here understand the context to which it is written. We are talking about power for Camping setup's Not Building a Space Station for NASA.

Ah or A-H or a-h is Amp Hours, used when referring to Batteries, Amps Per Hour is used when referring to Chargers.