Australian sapphire my ........

[rough2cut]

Ive been deceived. I was given 2 sapphires to cut and they looked like a yellow with a blue patch,a blue green cross section piece just like a Queensland sapphire.
So I cut them . the first thing was they cut very easily.They had the usual hard and soft facets but they felt a little different. For a start,I cut the yellow as a square radiant and did it in 45 minutes from rough.a personal best for me and yes all the facets polished with 100,000 and meets sharp. It could also be the new system I made. The other was a trillant and took about 2 hours finishing at 4.60ct. The owner of the rough said I called them Australian to prevent confusion. They were in fact Madagascan.

The other is a pink tourmaline which matched only by coicidence

 

[joao garimpeiro]

Nice stones, mate

 

[excalibur63]

Little confused here, deceived by yourself or by the owner that they were Aust. corundum?

 

[rough2cut]

The owner told me they were Aussie. After I cut them he then told me Madagascan

 

[excalibur63]

That is quite decietful, the owner should be ashamed

More often than I care for you read how concerned the fossicker is about being ripped off by the (as most call us "cutters") facetor. When in fact I believe not all are fessing up to their misunderstanding of the amount of loss in their precious stone when faceted.

Sure you can send your stones over to the Asian sweatshops for a return of a stone that sparkles and gets you the " ohh that's nice " from your mates wife. Put it back in it's bag and leave it in the drawer with all the other cut stones who's actual value is probably what was written on the bag in asia.
However, natural (not heat treated) transparent and minimally included sapphire of great color, faceted by a professional, not only jumps off the table and gets your mates wife to want it. It's monetary value would surprise you.
I have only recently started this hobby, everything I facet has been found by myself or my partner from N.E. Tas. If I ever get to the skill level of being competent enough to facet someone else's stone. I hope they would have the pride too that it's Australian.

 

[boobook]

Many years ago I did re faceting of damaged stones for manufacturing jewellers.

I was often given a large damaged "sapphire" to recut and would ask the jeweller to photo ID the damage with other written description.

I would dop the stone and make a tentative cut on a selected facet away from the damage to regularly find that this was not sapphire (too soft) but more likely spinel which does occur in sapphire shades.
This procedure was required to prevent accusations of stone swapping etc., the owner of the stone also very surprised that it was not sapphire.
Usually the stone was recut but better to be safe than sorry.
It is very rare to chip sapphire, but a gas bubble can break open to cause damage.

Interesting about those stones, very nicely cut and I like the trilliant style.

The old Aussie sapphire/ruby/diamond miner Cluff Res. has now changed name to Torian Res. and moved operations to Madagasca working with JV partners. Not much value in the shares though.
mike

 

[rough2cut]

I think He just wanted to see if there was noticeable difference in the cutting and there was. They were easier to cut with less facet peel than usual though my system is wearing in nicely and would have had an effect on the cutting. I don't agree about untreated rough being worth more. Most Australian rough needs treating to be even cuttable. I hate handing back a foggy stone that's been found by a fossicker and you cant just treat one stone at a time. So finding a clean ready to cut stone is a very rare event. As for the old stone being something else I had to do tho old photo proof myself to protect myself from the trade. You would be surprised how may chipped diamonds I recut that were Moissonite. Cluff would be doing well there from what I here about the sapphire coming out of there.

 

[Hunting the yellow]

wow stunning cuts m8 love the colours

 

[excalibur63]

Most Australian rough needs treating to be even cuttable.

It's the few I'm interested in.

 

[Lefty]

Most Australian rough needs treating to be even cuttable.

I know you're a very experienced cutter but can I ask you just how much experience you have had actually mining sapphire in Australia?

Yes there is plenty of rubbish but I expect that's true of everywhere else in the world that sapphire is mined. While my actual number of hours clocked up mining sapphire on the Anakie field is limited, the family has been digging there for around 40 years on and off. I see plenty of outstanding quality rough mined there, including some bright, clear sky blues that you could almost read a newspaper through - this stands in contrast to the "common knowledge" that blues from the Anakie field are nearly all a dark midnight blue that cut a near-black stone. I've only recently started work in an area where green sapphires are said to predominate, my experience so far is that this is true - but among the very small handful I've so far found, I have three very distinctly different shades ranging from a bright grass green to a deeper mid green to a beautiful near-aquamarine shade.

The day before yesterday we were told point blank by a seller on the field "we sell 100% of our rough to the Thai buyers, they give the best price". In fact, it seems that you can have a hard time even locating any rough for sale out there - remarkable for a place that produces such a significant percentage of world supply.

I am not in the business of selling rough sapphire but I have strong suspicions that a not insignificant percentage of top grade sapphire marked as Thai or Ceylon sapphire actually originates in Australia and that we Aussies are sold the shit that is left over - the too dark midnight blues, the silk-ridden stones etc. This has probably always been the way, going back it was the Brits and the Germans that used to buy up most of the good stone we produce, today it is the Thais who buy the good stuff - they buy by the kilo I'm told - take it overseas and promptly re-lable it "fine Thai" or "fine Ceylon" or something such.

I often wonder what happens to the zircons that are produced in not insignificant quantity along with the sapphires - a number of people I have spoken to in the faceting trade have remarked of the difficulty of buying Australian zircon, while African zircon is fairly readily available. So where do they all go? They just seem to vanish into the ether. A bloke I spoke to a while ago told me that he was told by a commercial miner that they export almost all of their zircon rough - no doubt to a place where it will be re-badged with a more exotic sounding place name before being sold back to us.

I'm not attempting to be a smart arse rough2cut - I just want to know how certain you think we can be of the country of origin, especially when buying rough from dealers based in areas away from the actual gemfields.

 

[Lefty]

Most Australian rough needs treating to be even cuttable.

It's the few I'm interested in.

I have to wonder how many experienced cutters have cut top grade Australian rough without realising it. How many have bought or been commisioned to cut fine sapphire supposedly originating from some exotic location overseas which in reality came from the ground in central Queensland, the New England area or perhaps from other more minor localities here in Oz? How could you be certain?

I mean no offence to rough2cut but it doesn't sound as though he's spent much time actually digging for sapphire on the various Australian fields. With all due respect to him, everyone tends to have their own specialized area in a chain - if you want to know the ins and outs of finely cutting meat you go and ask at your local butcher shop but if you want to know all about where it begins before it ends up in the butcher shop, you go and ask a grazier.

A bloke I know even had an experienced cutter tell him that a blue sapphire he dug in central Queensland and faceted himself could not be a sapphire because the finished stone was too light blue - apparently, it should have been very dark blue to black otherwise it could not have come from the CQ field. I can't fathom where the bloke could get this idea other than that he has only seen seen the stuff that international buyers aren't keen on and has never seen much of it as it comes out of the ground. Again, yes there is plenty of rubbish but there is some outstanding stuff as well. I remember Jim Elliot - a commercial miner here - railing about how the world has not been allowed to recognise just how good Australian sapphire can be, simply due to the dominance of the Thais.

To be clear, anyone who busts their bum down a hole in the ground deserves to get the best price for their stones - no argument at all. But as an Aussie, it does stick in my throat to see our best stone heading overseas and then re-badged as having come from somewhere else in the world, while the lower grade stuff - probably including lower grade stuff from elsewhere in the world - is sold as Australian, perpetuating a very much undeserved bad name. It's pure deceit.

 

[Heatho]

I feel a bit the same way about it Lefty, Aussie stones should only be sold as Aussie. The miners should be holding out and straight up tell the Thais to just get lost and don't come back. The reality is most miners are struggling and eager to sell stones for the best price, which the Thais offer, usually I'm told also.

If miners had a better cash reserve they could tell them to get lost, hold onto stones and restrict the supply until marketing practices change. Our government needs to educate people that Aussie Sapphires are some of the worlds finest.

 

[rough2cut]

OK lets clear it up . I was given the Madagascan stones as Aussie to see if I could tell the difference in the cutting and appearance. I noticed a cutting difference hence 45 mins on the yellow green ,an aussie stone a lot longer to cut.The excersise wasn't deception.It was a way of finding an impartial opinon on the rough and cuttabiltiy. The silky Aussie sapps heat treat and lighten where a clear dark will always be clear and dark it doesn't change much during the heating.SO the crappy silky ones are the ones to find when mining. I was only refering to being able to find a cuttable in the creek as a opposed to a single silky with most heat treaters not doing individual stones.
The only reason Aussies don't buy good sapphire is because a good sapphire rough would be a few hundred a carat. All I hear is $20 per carat is too much. And who would sell a piece of rough that can triple in value after a few hours of cutting. Its like giving away a fist full of money.
I think Ive been in this game too long. Not enough cutters to even dent the amount we mine, but I still get paid like a thai cutter.

 

[boobook]

Like rough2cut says, no one wants to pay $20/ct to have their stone cut, correct angles, meet points and good polish.
When you consider the equipment upkeep, laps and compound it don't leave much/hr. for the cutter.

Always used to amuse me, when after the customer grimly handed over the $30-40 or so cutting cost gleefully ask "what's it worth ,mate?". As if I was going to buy it from him!

Having seen first hand the Anakie miners (like Grt. Northern in the day) selling to the Thai buyers for less than the small bloke could dig them for no wonder the situation developed.

Today in Glen Innes, top Reddestone rough over 8-10ct. will bring $40-60/ct. and there is always a buyer ready.
mike

 

[Heatho]

I agree that the silky to clear ratio is in favour of the silky side, though I have seen some very clear stones come straight from the creek at Inverell. "Specials" would be a lot more than just $20-$30 per ct, $20 per ct will probably get a nice silky Blue that will treat well, $30 per ct may get a much cleaner stone. If someone is prepared to fork out hundreds per carat then if they are lucky the specials may come out. I know a lot of miners hang on to the specials as a retirement fund and sell off the more average though still decent stuff (meat and potatoes) at $20-$30 per carat to make ends meet.

Going to the source rather than buying from a dealer will always get a much better price in my opinion, some miners are digging up 5-10 or more oz per day and are quite happy to sell great rough at a reasonable price, specials are just that though and you would have to ask for them.

Interesting that the Madagascan stones are easier to cut though and a bummer that a lot of people are not prepared to pay more for outstanding work done in Australia.

To be honest though, the colours of the Madagascan stones in the pic do not appeal to me at all, though your cutting looks great. I much prefer the Aussie Greens, Blues and Yellows much more, the Violet Aussie ones are my very fav.

 

[Heatho]

Like rough2cut says, no one wants to pay $20/ct to have their stone cut, correct angles, meet points and good polish.
When you consider the equipment upkeep, laps and compound it don't leave much/hr. for the cutter.

mike

Depends who your working for I guess, I'd happily pay a decent rate for a top job no worries, you get whingers everywhere, you hear people whinge all the time about costs and poor service, a lot of the time these people are just plain old bad customers.......

Should have heard the yuppies the other day complaining about their chai soy lattes at my local cafe.

 

[Lefty]

OK lets clear it up . I was given the Madagascan stones as Aussie to see if I could tell the difference in the cutting and appearance. I noticed a cutting difference hence 45 mins on the yellow green ,an aussie stone a lot longer to cut.The excersise wasn't deception.It was a way of finding an impartial opinon on the rough and cuttabiltiy. The silky Aussie sapps heat treat and lighten where a clear dark will always be clear and dark it doesn't change much during the heating.SO the crappy silky ones are the ones to find when mining. I was only refering to being able to find a cuttable in the creek as a opposed to a single silky with most heat treaters not doing individual stones.
The only reason Aussies don't buy good sapphire is because a good sapphire rough would be a few hundred a carat. All I hear is $20 per carat is too much. And who would sell a piece of rough that can triple in value after a few hours of cutting. Its like giving away a fist full of money.
I think Ive been in this game too long. Not enough cutters to even dent the amount we mine, but I still get paid like a thai cutter.

Fair enough answer.

I was merely going on what sounded like an argument that most Aussie sapphires were second-grade rubbish that can't be faceted without prior treatment when this is simply not the case. And I keep coming across people who I would have thought know what the truth is who seem oblivious, such as the facetor who still argues that lighter-coloured blues do not exist on the Anakie field. Dad once dug a blocky-shaped green about 30 carats with shiny faces - when taken to a jeweller, the bloke insisted it was just a piece of green glass. A jeweller who could not tell the difference between a good rough sapphire and a piece of broken bottle.

 

[Lefty]

I'd happily pay a decent rate for a top job no worries,

As would I Heatho.

 

[bill greenaway]

Lefty is quite right - many Australian stones are of good quality and do not need treatment before cutting. It is also true that the better quality greens can look very like glass - although any cutter should know the difference. I attach a picky

of a clear green stone (3.5 carat) dug on Bedford Hill, Rubyvale a few days ago, and yes - it could be taken for a piece of glass!

 

[boobook]

I reckon much of the Australian sapphire industry problems stem from the fact there has never been a substantial local cutting and marketing program.

Just about all the commercially mined bulk sapphire goes overseas in rough form then when cut can be on sold as being from anywhere on earth.
Years ago I saw bags of clear blue/white cross table stone being sold in Rubyvale.
Best Ceylon cornflower blue, that's how it would have ended up.

The opal industry gelled onto this years ago also having it proclaimed Australia's National Gem.
90% cut locally and even though prices have fallen on a per carat basis it is light years ahead of sapphire.
mike