another gold auction , about 10 million bucks worth this time

[CreviceSucker]

there are 5 x 400 ounce gold bars and downwards plus shiploads of nuggies

https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/AuctionLots.aspx?smode=0&aid=19602&pgn=1&pgs=15

i wonder how much of this will go overseas ?

 

[user 4386]

Does it really matter - what is 10 million bucks worth of gold in the grand scheme of things - 0.12 tonnes? (Australia produced 328 tonnes of gold for the year to the end of the financial year in June).

But yes, most of that will be sold overseas.

 

[CreviceSucker]

It matters to me because when i see the enthusiastic bidding it makes me feel happier than ever to be a prospector.

 

[user 4386]

Point taken

 

[user 4386]

Crevice Sucker, can you fill me in on this auction?

Firstly, why does one buy at auction something that can be bought daily at the going gold price? And why would anyone sell at a lower price?

Secondly, why are bids so low - isn't that just the seller putting a price on each item to get the bidding started? For example, why would a 10 oz ingot only have a ridiculously low bid of $2,202? Or a 400 oz bar only $23,500? If things were really going to sell at prices anything like that, there would be huge interest on every one of them (the seller could easily sell them anywhere for many times the price without bothering with the auction. But obviously that will not happen - I can't believe that even one of these prices was put on by a real bidder? I don't understand the reason, whether it is simply to get bidding started or just to bring people to the website that sells other things as well.

Australian dollar spot price for gold today is $2,662. So the price of 400 oz is $A1,064,800

As for interest in gold, for decades now the world mine production of gold has been around 25% lower ounces than the world demand. There is ALWAYS interest in gold.

So can you explain - what am I missing here?

 

[CreviceSucker]

Crevice Sucker, can you fill me in on this auction?

Firstly, why does one buy at auction something that can be bought daily at the going gold price? And why would anyone sell at a lower price?

Secondly, why are bids so low - isn't that just the seller putting a price on each item to get the bidding started? For example, why would a 10 oz ingot only have a ridiculously low bid of $2,202? Or a 400 oz bar only $23,500? If things were really going to sell at prices anything like that, there would be huge interest on every one of them (the seller could easily sell them anywhere for many times the price without bothering with the auction. But obviously that will not happen - I can't believe that even one of these prices was put on by a real bidder? I don't understand the reason, whether it is simply to get bidding started or just to bring people to the website that sells other things as well.

Australian dollar spot price for gold today is $2,662. So the price of 400 oz is $A1,064,800

As for interest in gold, for decades now the world mine production of gold has been around 25% lower ounces than the world demand. There is ALWAYS interest in gold.

So can you explain - what am I missing here?

The seller is unlikely to be putting bids on , When i saw this auction start I was one of the first to bid , the prices started from zero , I have put bids on more than half of whats in the sale and watched while other buyers with different buyer numbers came in randomly to outbid me on the way up.

It is possible that I will be outbid past my limit but I am hoping there are things I win because they are overlooked in the melee.

I have no doubt some items will sell well above their bullion value and some might sell for less. Natural nuggets and crystalline gold easily sells for higher than bullion content because of their natural visual merits.

When I saw the 400 ounce bullion bars I was surprised to see them listed because I wouldnt have expected them to attract the right level of interest in Australia , if it was me I would have listed them at Sothebys in Dubai , New York or London to appeal to that level of buyer.

You ask why are prices so low the answer is they start from zero and buyers all have different tactics , some will wait until the last half hour before they start bidding and other buyers dont have time to sit there so they throw on their maximum bid early in proceedings and go back to doing other things. You can put an auto bid of $500 on an item but if there are no other bidders you might take it home for $10 for all you know.

If there are items that dont meet the sellers expectations the auctioneer might advise the buyer that it didnt meet reserve.

I have bought and sold mining equipment with these guys and other auction institutions around the country for many years and I trust Lloyds , there are 2 other auction businesses I would never trust to sell even a mouldy scone because I have sprung them doing dodgy things in the past but cant name them publicly for obvious reasons.

Some other auction sites display the initials and location of the bidders chasing each item which is great for transparency , I wish they all did that.

If you worry that auction staff would bid you up higher I dont believe so as they are all understaffed , if you try to ring them for information about sales you would be lucky to get a call back within a few days ,and some of the other auctions wont bother ringing at all because they are paid at the lower end of the scale and treated likewise , they dont give rats about their job , at least Lloyds do have a good history with actually replying to emails and phone calls.

 

[CreviceSucker]

Crevice Sucker, can you fill me in on this auction?

Firstly, why does one buy at auction something that can be bought daily at the going gold price? And why would anyone sell at a lower price?

Secondly, why are bids so low - isn't that just the seller putting a price on each item to get the bidding started? For example, why would a 10 oz ingot only have a ridiculously low bid of $2,202? Or a 400 oz bar only $23,500? If things were really going to sell at prices anything like that, there would be huge interest on every one of them (the seller could easily sell them anywhere for many times the price without bothering with the auction. But obviously that will not happen - I can't believe that even one of these prices was put on by a real bidder? I don't understand the reason, whether it is simply to get bidding started or just to bring people to the website that sells other things as well.

Australian dollar spot price for gold today is $2,662. So the price of 400 oz is $A1,064,800

As for interest in gold, for decades now the world mine production of gold has been around 25% lower ounces than the world demand. There is ALWAYS interest in gold.

So can you explain - what am I missing here?

PS , if you buy gold bars from Perth Mint you dont get it at bullion price , they charge a percentage on top and bite you again with a percentage less than bullion when they buy it off you , gold or silver coins have a much higher profit margin than gold bars too.

 

[RM Outback]

What's got me curious is the advertised weight, Lot 202 is a 1 ounce gold bullion tablet as per their description that states a weight value of 28.35 grams :| My understanding is a Troy ounce equates to 31.1034 metric grams which says the bullion weight is metric not troy :|

A metric ounce equates to 28.35 metric grams be careful what you bid.

Oops forgot to add the screen shot,

 

[user 4386]

Crevice Sucker, can you fill me in on this auction?

Firstly, why does one buy at auction something that can be bought daily at the going gold price? And why would anyone sell at a lower price?

Secondly, why are bids so low - isn't that just the seller putting a price on each item to get the bidding started? For example, why would a 10 oz ingot only have a ridiculously low bid of $2,202? Or a 400 oz bar only $23,500? If things were really going to sell at prices anything like that, there would be huge interest on every one of them (the seller could easily sell them anywhere for many times the price without bothering with the auction. But obviously that will not happen - I can't believe that even one of these prices was put on by a real bidder? I don't understand the reason, whether it is simply to get bidding started or just to bring people to the website that sells other things as well.

Australian dollar spot price for gold today is $2,662. So the price of 400 oz is $A1,064,800

As for interest in gold, for decades now the world mine production of gold has been around 25% lower ounces than the world demand. There is ALWAYS interest in gold.

So can you explain - what am I missing here?

PS , if you buy gold bars from Perth Mint you dont get it at bullion price , they charge a percentage on top and bite you again with a percentage less than bullion when they buy it off you , gold or silver coins have a much higher profit margin than gold bars too.

My comments related purely to bullion bars and ingots, which should not be affected in the way coins or nuggets are (not manufactured items or natural). Surely the reserve price would be the current spot gold price, for buyer versus seller? Even currency notes have buyer and seller price, , partly based on future expectations - otherwise why would anyone be in the business of buying or selling gold? You would need to pay less when you buy gold than when you sell it - it only looks like a double whammy if a buyer becomes an instant seller on the same day, doing both through the mint? No-one would do that, as they would try to sell when the price was higher than when they bought. How much extra do they charge at the mint above the spot price? Looking at this today it seems negligible (the total buyer-seller spread is only 3.8% on an ounce, $96, less as a percentage on larger bars).

I guess my main point is that I cannot see why these people you deal with would have reserve price lower than what they paid for the gold. But perhaps that is what you are speculating on, that their purchase price plus acceptable profit will still be less than the spot price when they sell to you?

 

[user 4386]

What's got me curious is the advertised weight, Lot 202 is a 1 ounce gold bullion tablet as per their description that states a weight value of 28.35 grams :| My understanding is a Troy ounce equates to 31.1034 metric grams which says the bullion weight is metric not troy :|

A metric ounce equates to 28.35 metric grams be careful what you bid.

Oops forgot to add the screen shot,
https://www.prospectingaustralia.com/forum/img/member-images/7093/1603691971_img_20201026_164221.jpg

That is odd - quite a percentage difference - around 10% (the gold price is always quoted in troy ounces). RM Outback, I thought it was an international standard to cast iron ingots and bars in multiples of troy ounces, not in multiples of avoirdupois ounces.

 

[RM Outback]

What's got me curious is the advertised weight, Lot 202 is a 1 ounce gold bullion tablet as per their description that states a weight value of 28.35 grams :| My understanding is a Troy ounce equates to 31.1034 metric grams which says the bullion weight is metric not troy :|

A metric ounce equates to 28.35 metric grams be careful what you bid.

Oops forgot to add the screen shot,
https://www.prospectingaustralia.com/forum/img/member-images/7093/1603691971_img_20201026_164221.jpg

That is odd - quite a percentage difference - around 10% (the gold price is always quoted in troy ounces). RM Outback, I thought it was an international standard to cast iron ingots and bars in multiples of troy ounces, not in multiples of avoirdupois ounces.

I wouldn't bid a cent too suspicious for my liking. Looking like Lloyd's haven't done their homework, have been ripped off or worse case outright shifty.

 

[Bjay]

Gold coated tungsten bars. Who knows but I wouldnt risk it.

 

[CreviceSucker]

Gold coated tungsten bars. Who knows but I wouldnt risk it.

I emailed Lloyds a few days ago to check who the seller was , I wanted to check before bidding if it was Mister Anon from Macau or Shanghai but they said its an Aussie bullion dealer who supplied certificates with matching serial numbers to the bars but my kids could make such a thing on the IPad over school lunch break I guess.

If there was anything shonky I would bet QLD cops would have jumped On their heads by now , they are not idiots.

 

[RM Outback]

Gold coated tungsten bars. Who knows but I wouldnt risk it.

I emailed Lloyds a few days ago to check who the seller was , I wanted to check before bidding if it was Mister Anon from Macau or Shanghai but they said its an Aussie bullion dealer who supplied certificates with matching serial numbers to the bars but my kids could make such a thing on the IPad over school lunch break I guess.

If there was anything shonky I would bet QLD cops would have jumped On their heads by now , they are not idiots.

Definitely not idiots they've been in business far too long to label them idiots. The weights are the indicator for me to leave it well alone. A 1 ounce minted tablet stamped as four 9's fine gold yet has only 28.35 grams :| Lloyd's mustn't have done their homework and are happy to pick up their commissions.

 

[CreviceSucker]

Crevice Sucker, can you fill me in on this auction?

Firstly, why does one buy at auction something that can be bought daily at the going gold price? And why would anyone sell at a lower price?

Secondly, why are bids so low - isn't that just the seller putting a price on each item to get the bidding started? For example, why would a 10 oz ingot only have a ridiculously low bid of $2,202? Or a 400 oz bar only $23,500? If things were really going to sell at prices anything like that, there would be huge interest on every one of them (the seller could easily sell them anywhere for many times the price without bothering with the auction. But obviously that will not happen - I can't believe that even one of these prices was put on by a real bidder? I don't understand the reason, whether it is simply to get bidding started or just to bring people to the website that sells other things as well.

Australian dollar spot price for gold today is $2,662. So the price of 400 oz is $A1,064,800

As for interest in gold, for decades now the world mine production of gold has been around 25% lower ounces than the world demand. There is ALWAYS interest in gold.

So can you explain - what am I missing here?

PS , if you buy gold bars from Perth Mint you dont get it at bullion price , they charge a percentage on top and bite you again with a percentage less than bullion when they buy it off you , gold or silver coins have a much higher profit margin than gold bars too.

My comments related purely to bullion bars and ingots, which should not be affected in the way coins or nuggets are (not manufactured items or natural). Surely the reserve price would be the current spot gold price, for buyer versus seller? Even currency notes have buyer and seller price, , partly based on future expectations - otherwise why would anyone be in the business of buying or selling gold? You would need to pay less when you buy gold than when you sell it - it only looks like a double whammy if a buyer becomes an instant seller on the same day, doing both through the mint? No-one would do that, as they would try to sell when the price was higher than when they bought. How much extra do they charge at the mint above the spot price? Looking at this today it seems negligible (the total buyer-seller spread is only 3.8% on an ounce, $96, less as a percentage on larger bars).

https://www.prospectingaustralia.com/forum/img/member-images/4386/1603692013_perth_mint_price.jpg

I guess my main point is that I cannot see why these people you deal with would have reserve price lower than what they paid for the gold. But perhaps that is what you are speculating on, that their purchase price plus acceptable profit will still be less than the spot price when they sell to you?

Why are you assuming the reserve price is lower than bullion value ?

We didnt see the end of auction yet so we dont know where the reserve prices are at.

 

[user 4386]

Crevice Sucker, can you fill me in on this auction?

Firstly, why does one buy at auction something that can be bought daily at the going gold price? And why would anyone sell at a lower price?

Secondly, why are bids so low - isn't that just the seller putting a price on each item to get the bidding started? For example, why would a 10 oz ingot only have a ridiculously low bid of $2,202? Or a 400 oz bar only $23,500? If things were really going to sell at prices anything like that, there would be huge interest on every one of them (the seller could easily sell them anywhere for many times the price without bothering with the auction. But obviously that will not happen - I can't believe that even one of these prices was put on by a real bidder? I don't understand the reason, whether it is simply to get bidding started or just to bring people to the website that sells other things as well.

Australian dollar spot price for gold today is $2,662. So the price of 400 oz is $A1,064,800

As for interest in gold, for decades now the world mine production of gold has been around 25% lower ounces than the world demand. There is ALWAYS interest in gold.

So can you explain - what am I missing here?

PS , if you buy gold bars from Perth Mint you dont get it at bullion price , they charge a percentage on top and bite you again with a percentage less than bullion when they buy it off you , gold or silver coins have a much higher profit margin than gold bars too.

My comments related purely to bullion bars and ingots, which should not be affected in the way coins or nuggets are (not manufactured items or natural). Surely the reserve price would be the current spot gold price, for buyer versus seller? Even currency notes have buyer and seller price, , partly based on future expectations - otherwise why would anyone be in the business of buying or selling gold? You would need to pay less when you buy gold than when you sell it - it only looks like a double whammy if a buyer becomes an instant seller on the same day, doing both through the mint? No-one would do that, as they would try to sell when the price was higher than when they bought. How much extra do they charge at the mint above the spot price? Looking at this today it seems negligible (the total buyer-seller spread is only 3.8% on an ounce, $96, less as a percentage on larger bars).

https://www.prospectingaustralia.com/forum/img/member-images/4386/1603692013_perth_mint_price.jpg

I guess my main point is that I cannot see why these people you deal with would have reserve price lower than what they paid for the gold. But perhaps that is what you are speculating on, that their purchase price plus acceptable profit will still be less than the spot price when they sell to you?

Why are you assuming the reserve price is lower than bullion value ?

We didnt see the end of auction yet so we dont know where the reserve prices are at.

Why do you assume that I assume that - I don't? It will relate to what the spot price is on the day and to what they paid to buy the gold. Not sure what you mean by the term "value" though.

 

[user 4386]

Is it possible that they are simply poorly informed, and don't realise that a troy ounce is different to an avoirdupois ounce? That they simply bought them by the "ounce" (all ingots are normally troy) and did their own conversion to grams? There is nothing otherwise to suggest that they are shady, and they definitely are uninformed about some other things that they are selling.

 

[jethro]

Interesting to say the least. Somewhere along the line someone has either stuffed up with the listing by not actually checking the weight or had the wool pulled over their eyes by someone who has skimmed about 2.8grams off each troy ounce hoping that someone will get caught up in the quick buck fever. and by what hey think is a bargain only to get burned when they weigh it in ounces troy.

 

[CreviceSucker]

Interesting to say the least. Somewhere along the line someone has either stuffed up with the listing by not actually checking the weight or had the wool pulled over their eyes by someone who has skimmed about 2.8grams off each troy ounce hoping that someone will get caught up in the quick buck fever. and by what hey think is a bargain only to get burned when they weigh it in ounces troy.

they were all stamped with correct weight and had assay documents with them.

Some refiners work in metric ounces and some use Troy , the metric system did come in here 30 odd years ago after all.

the biggest 400 ounce bars probably didnt sell , they were about 70 grand under bullion value so wouldnt have reached reserve.

i think virtually every other bar of bullion and all the nuggets were sold.

 

[user 4386]

Interesting to say the least. Somewhere along the line someone has either stuffed up with the listing by not actually checking the weight or had the wool pulled over their eyes by someone who has skimmed about 2.8grams off each troy ounce hoping that someone will get caught up in the quick buck fever. and by what hey think is a bargain only to get burned when they weigh it in ounces troy.

they were all stamped with correct weight and had assay documents with them.

Some refiners work in metric ounces and some use Troy , the metric system did come in here 30 odd years ago after all.

the biggest 400 ounce bars probably didnt sell , they were about 70 grand under bullion value so wouldnt have reached reserve.

i think virtually every other bar of bullion and all the nuggets were sold.

I don't think there is such a thing as a metric ounce - an ounce is not a metric unit - so I don't think it has much to do with us going metric. Your choices are avoirdupois or troy (i.e. a retained troy unit because of currency consideration - to prevent confusion in buying and selling gold, as it caused us - versus the later "British" system of ounces and pounds). Not metric.

Major mints (The Royal Mint, Perth Mint, Royal Canadian Mint, Johnson Matthey, PAMP Suisse, Credit Suisse, Swiss Bank, Metalor, Heraeus, Valcambi, UBS, Baird Mint and Umicor) cast troy ounce bars, so I wonder where yours come from? Mines quote production in troy ounces when they use ounces. I assume they are stamped with their purity as well, not just a document?

400 ounce bars always demand a lower premium.

I have never seen avoirdupois gold bars before (the only other type I know is the 32.15 troy ounce kilobar of 1000 grams). Where are they cast? I am wary of source because China produces lots of fake bars with tungsten cores (almost identical in mass to gold). However that has nothing to do with the units of measurement, which have been declared in this case. One buyer bought 80 tonnes of fake bars....