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#1

condor22
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From: Adelaide, SA
Joined: 16 December 2013
Posts: 2,126
Member
13 January 2021 01:57 pm

I've just got back from the public weighbridge after weighing the 4x4 and caravan. To put my results in context I'll list both, their specs and their current status. (All weights in kg)

SPECS
4x4 = 2016 Colorado 7 - Kerb = 2175 - GVM = 2820 - LOAD = 645 - GCM = 5700 - TOW 3000 - Ball = 300.
Van Jurgens Skygazer 2013 - ATM = 1800 - GTM = 1665 - BALL = 135 - TARE - 1465 - LOAD = 335 (I will point out that when I got the van it never weighed in at rated GTM or BALL, so not sure at what point these were rated)

The Colorado has a Titan Drawer system, Engel, 100 AH battery and drawer contents i.e. recovery gear, nudge bar, spotties and a solar panel on the roof. When weighed I was in the vehicle as that is part of the weight.

WEIGHED
Without the van, the C7 weighed in at 2440 which gives me 380 kg spare to GVM. The van total weighed in at 1730 which gives me 70 kg spare on ATM. (The van 60 lt water tank was half full, no food or clothes in it, but other items like sat dish TV spares etc are always in it. GCM was 4200 well below the limit.

When I go away, I add detector gear, picks etc, tools, the Brass Monkey, fridge contents etc to a weight of 150 kg and the ball weight is actually 160 kg, which uses up 310 of the 380 kg spare. Clothes and food in the van add another 50 kg to the van which leaves me 20 kg spare (So no full tank in this scenario)

To fill my water tank, I need to put food into the car to give me approx 40 kg spare in the car and 20 kg in the van.

I should add that everything I'm likely to load in the van or car has been weighed on bathroom scales and will need to be reviewed as to if they get loaded. Also, If I take SWMBO with me, something gets left behind to stay under GVM. smile

Conclusion, my point here is that even though I am 1500 kg below GCM without load and still 1300 kg fully loaded below GCM, the car GVM and the van ATM are very close to max. But at least I am now aware of what I can put in both and where. smile

Need to seriously look at "Do I really need to take this, lol"...........

4 users like this post: goody2shoes, Dihusky, robmoto, nucopia

#2

Ridge Runner
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Joined: 04 September 2014
Posts: 7,481
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13 January 2021 02:28 pm

condor22 wrote:

I've just got back from the public weighbridge after weighing the 4x4 and caravan. To put my results in context I'll list both, their specs and their current status. (All weights in kg)

SPECS
4x4 = 2016 Colorado 7 - Kerb = 2175 - GVM = 2820 - LOAD = 645 - GCM = 5700 - TOW 3000 - Ball = 300.
Van Jurgens Skygazer 2013 - ATM = 1800 - GTM = 1665 - BALL = 135 - TARE - 1465 - LOAD = 335 (I will point out that when I got the van it never weighed in at rated GTM or BALL, so not sure at what point these were rated)

The Colorado has a Titan Drawer system, Engel, 100 AH battery and drawer contents i.e. recovery gear, nudge bar, spotties and a solar panel on the roof. When weighed I was in the vehicle as that is part of the weight.

WEIGHED
Without the van, the C7 weighed in at 2440 which gives me 380 kg spare to GVM. The van total weighed in at 1730 which gives me 70 kg spare on ATM. (The van 60 lt water tank was half full, no food or clothes in it, but other items like sat dish TV spares etc are always in it. GCM was 4200 well below the limit.

When I go away, I add detector gear, picks etc, tools, the Brass Monkey, fridge contents etc to a weight of 150 kg and the ball weight is actually 160 kg, which uses up 310 of the 380 kg spare. Clothes and food in the van add another 50 kg to the van which leaves me 20 kg spare (So no full tank in this scenario)

To fill my water tank, I need to put food into the car to give me approx 40 kg spare in the car and 20 kg in the van.

I should add that everything I'm likely to load in the van or car has been weighed on bathroom scales and will need to be reviewed as to if they get loaded. Also, If I take SWMBO with me, something gets left behind to stay under GVM. smile

Conclusion, my point here is that even though I am 1500 kg below GCM without load and still 1300 kg fully loaded below GCM, the car GVM and the van ATM are very close to max. But at least I am now aware of what I can put in both and where. smile

Need to seriously look at "Do I really need to take this, lol"...........

It might be an Idea to get the Caravan's Springs/Load Rating changed, Try contacting the makers of it and see if they have an upgrade kit for it,

OR, if the Colorado 7 is a 7 seater remove the 3rd row seating and that should give you an extra 70 to 140Kgs to play with,

OR, change the Vans battery to Lithium and the Col-7 AUX battery to Lithium as well that will give you another 40Kg to play with,

I know you don't like Lithium batteries but this is where they come in to their own,

ALSO, Limit the amount of Canned Foods you Haul and replace them with Dried foods,

But Never limit the Amount of Beer you take because you can always ask SWMBO to stay home, LOLOLOL,

Also have you added yours and SWMBO weight to the total of the COL-7 weight ??,

Other than that you might need a bigger Truck or 4x4.

Last edited by Ridge Runner (13 January 2021 02:30 pm)


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#3

Lesgold
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From: South Coast, NSW
Joined: 12 April 2017
Posts: 744
Member
13 January 2021 03:48 pm

I know your pain condor. There is very little wriggle room as far as weight goes on modern utes. Ran into the same problem as you 18 months ago setting up for a WA trip. My weights were so close to the mark that a slab of beer would have put me over. My wife and I took out and weighed nearly 50kg of “stuff” to give us a buffer. This occurred at 2am on the morning of the trip due to a lack of sleep worrying about the problem. Extra detector coils, a second pick, food and clothing all hit the junk pile to get the weight down. Adding a long range fuel tank a couple of weeks prior to leaving worsened the issue. Forget about a bull bar. That was never a possibility. I reckon the next ute will have upgrades done before it is registered for the first time to give better legal carrying capacities.


GPZ 7000, SDC 2300, Equinox 800
Bullet and lead shot specialist.

#4

Dihusky
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From: Gold Coast, QLD
Joined: 16 June 2017
Posts: 1,364
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13 January 2021 04:58 pm

Done your sums condor22, recon a few people might need to read and digest. ops

I haven't heard what the road and compliance boys were up to this year but weight is becoming a big issue now and a lot of people seem to fail to understand the what's and why's until all goes pear shaped. AND... when the Insurers run their analysis, they're likely to drop out of the game and you're uninsured. awful

The concept of the "1 tonner" is a joke and people don't seem to realise that it's the max load over basically dry weight, bodies, fuel, goodies the lot then add the ball load, no wonder the chassis snaps. Another problem with 1 tonners is the real axle position, the rear overhang can be massive with around 2/3rds of the tray behind the axle not in front.

Fortunately not a problem I have with Lizzy the 5.6t truck smile

1 user likes this post: condor22

#5

condor22
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From: Adelaide, SA
Joined: 16 December 2013
Posts: 2,126
Member
13 January 2021 05:00 pm

RR

The axle/spring of the Jurgens is the ALKO live axle ie internal and an external shocker each side. It is not adjustable or upgradeable.

The C7 has a Dounble Titan drawer/fridge slide etc and the 3 row seats are already removed. smile PS the seats weigh about 25 kg total, not 70 to 140 you note. Then I added about 5kg of false floor smile So the saving here is already applied.

The C7 Aux is a 100 AH AGM @ 31 kg. A 100 AH Lithium is about 11 kg so only a 20 kg saving not 40 kg you note. smile So gonna cost me about $1,000 to save 20 kg. Then I have to look at the DC-DC and Solar charging.......

No, the SWMBO is not in the mix of weights noted, she generally does not go with me on prospecting trips, so not normally an issue.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The main point of the thread is, that even though the C7 has a 3 ton tow, 300 kg ball and my van is under 1.8 ton (60%) that it is not the main thing that puts a 4x4 over weight. It's more to do with what we throw in and on them. Keep in mind, I don't have a bullbar or winch on my 4by as many do and most of the 4x4s in the catergory will be affected in a similar ways.

I've generally done all my food n drink shop here in the city, often getting 3-4 weeks worth thinking it cheaper. However, I then have to lug it over to VIC. Next trip I'm gonna get 2-3 days worth in the Engel and do the main shop when I get over there. It's not remote camping i.e. W.A. and I'm only 10 minutes from a town, or 30 minutes from a regional centre. That can easily save me 50 kg.

I usually camp for several weeks in one spot. There are only 3 or 4 free or low cost camps I have used, but mostly I'm on a mates property as a base camp, I then drive to detect. As I'm not touring, once there I can go do a big shop locally.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Plus as Les points out, I need to go through the car n van, say to myself have I needed this in the last 5 years and leave it home if not. smile

PS Since my first post, I also realised that as I did a big wash after last trip, none of the bedding, doona (duvet for you RR) or towels were in the van when weighed.

#6

condor22
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From: Adelaide, SA
Joined: 16 December 2013
Posts: 2,126
Member
13 January 2021 05:24 pm

The weights I posted are for my setup. I could sit back and say to myself, "hey I can tow 3 ton with my wheels, so towing 1.8 ton is a breeze" and let it go at that. I could fill up my water tank, as I have in the past, do my big food shop, as I also have and then drive off interstate, as I have for several years.

On that basis, I believe my car was a little under GVM as not much has or will change. The big issue I have is, I firmly believe that at times, my caravan has been slightly over GTM (weight on the axle) Given my weights today and approximation of water/food carried, about 20-40kg overloaded. Not a huge amount, but non the less, overloaded.

I've been lucky to a. had no problems and b. not been roadside checked.

But as Di points out, the problem is when something goes wrong and the insurance companies get involved and you find your claim refused. smile I would imagine that if an accident occurs, it only takes one of either the car or van to be overloaded, to void both insurance claims.

I read recently, that a survey done in Aust. showed over 60% of tow vehicles were unknowingly over GVM and although I can't recall the figure, quite a few too many vans over GTM.

It's about 3 months before I head out, so time to do some changes, fortunately I now have a baseline and the weights of pretty well all the gear I carry. The weighbridge is about 20 minutes up the road, so I'll also give myself a bit more time at my next departure to weigh again fully loaded. That way I know if legal or not and not far to return home if necessary. On that occasion I'll pay for and get an official docket to carry with me.

The weighbridge is a listed public weighbridge and for an unofficial (read out rather than docket) weighing, it was a donation to the AWL. (Tin in the office). So a big shout out to Normetals, P/L.

#7

Ridge Runner
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Joined: 04 September 2014
Posts: 7,481
Member
13 January 2021 05:48 pm

The GCM is very misleading when you have a Trailer that falls well short of the GCM, Back when I had the 4x I only looked at trailers that had a payload of over 400kgs then I found another brand that would allow me to go over 600kgs, In the end I just went with the Van because I could carry more weight and not have to Tow a Trailer, Not really an option for what you are doing and where you go,


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#8

Katabatic
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Joined: 27 August 2020
Posts: 144
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13 January 2021 07:39 pm

condor22 wrote:

SPECS
4x4 = 2016 Colorado 7 - Kerb = 2175 - GVM = 2820 - LOAD = 645 - GCM = 5700 - TOW 3000 - Ball = 300.

Interesting how the Specs changed once GM let go of Isuzu.

I have a 2011 Colorado....the last of the re-badged D-Max's.

Specs are (your quoted specs in brackets):

Kerb = 1932 (2175) - GVM = 2900 (2820) - LOAD = 968 (645) - GCM = 5900 (5700) - Tow = 3000 (3000)

Looks like the introduction of the C7 wasn't really a step in the right direction for the towing fraternity.

We spent ten years towing a 22' Coromal around Oz and saw many rigs that broke just about every rule in the book.

When the Darwin rail line opened to freight the number of semis on the highway was dramatically reduced.

The weigh-station crew just outside Katherine suddenly found themselves twiddling their thumbs.....till they decided to justify their existence by pulling over all the nomads instead of the now non-existent trucks.

I think a few home truths came to light around about then.

A lot of people suddenly discovered that the nice 4wd and caravan salesmen really didn't have a bloody clue what they were talking about.

They still don't.

Last edited by Katabatic (13 January 2021 07:41 pm)

#9

condor22
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From: Adelaide, SA
Joined: 16 December 2013
Posts: 2,126
Member
13 January 2021 10:21 pm

This is typical of many 4x4 wagons and utes but; If you look at the GVM, GCM and Tow load alone i.e. GVM = 2820 & GCM of 5700, the difference is 2820 not 3000.

So if your vehicle is at GVM you can't tow 3 ton. The Colorado is close, but have a look at other makes n models, where the difference is higher than 120 kg.

So the next thing to look at is ball weight which is part of GVM so the 645 kg load is actually 345 kg if ball = max. However, my experience is that if you use scales to measure ball weight at the ball socket of the van at 300 kg it is actually more when applied to the vehicle due to the "moment arm" the distance from the towball on the car and the back axle.

To prove this, I measured the car without the van at 2440. When I weighed with the van I weighed the total of the car and van, then moved forward measuring van wheels only. The difference between the two is the 4x4 GVM with the van hooked up and calculated at 175 kg. When I got home, unhooked the van I got the ball scale out and measured it at 160 kg. So the difference is an additional 15 kg on the car and without weight distribution that would be more than that on the rear and less on the front wheels. A lot to consider.

So forget measuring ball weight with scales, it's a guide only. The only way to know the actual weight, is to measure its affect on the car i.e. weigh the car without the van, then weigh it with the van. The difference is the actual.

It's much like my thread on bush power, just because I have a 100 AH AGM doesn't mean I have 100 AH to use. Just because my tow will pull 3 ton doesn't mean I could or should. I've always tried to keep my tow load to between 60-75% of capacity. Why stress your drive train, if you want to tow 3 ton, buy a RAM or similar, lol.

Last edited by condor22 (13 January 2021 10:24 pm)

#10

Big Johno
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Joined: 01 November 2019
Posts: 27
Member
01 February 2021 08:37 pm

When I bought my 21'6' jayco silverline off road a friend said to me don't buy any of the mid sized 4 x 4, even though they advertise they tow 3 ton or 3.5 ton ....they can't, get a cruiser, if you can't afford a new car get a used cruiser. They are the safest tow "car" bar none.
So I did.....best decision I ever made, V8 chews the juice but I take all my toys with me and it just cruises at the speed limits comfortably. a New Sahara cruiser is up around 140K, I paid 30K for mine with 120,000 kms on the clock, luxury GV model and I haver done just of 120,000 Kms reliably in last 3 years with only normal services. It was just built to tow man, I love it and if I wasn't such a tight ar#e I would get a new one , but why would I when I have constantly met people with over 400,00kms of reliable travel.
PLUS I don't stress about a few scratches on the sides when exploring those remote goldfields in WA, If I had new I wouldn't go to half the places I have been.

Thats how I recommend to solve the complexity of ATM and AGM etc etc
cheers Johno

#11

condor22
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From: Adelaide, SA
Joined: 16 December 2013
Posts: 2,126
Member
22 February 2021 11:02 pm

I weighed my single axle caravan today using the Reich Caravan Weight Device. It has a stated +/- of 3% accuracy. Given that my wheel weight is an average of 750 kg, this is a +/- of 22.5 kg or a range of 45 kg. I have a wooden ramp etc made up with a gap to allow for tyre distortion. I decided to run each wheel over the device 4 times, then average the figure to be more accurate.

The van's loading condition is as follows, 27 lt of water in the 60 lt tank. No bedding as yet, no food and no clothes. I should add the van never weighed 1330 kg on the wheels from the moment I bought it new. So as mentioned previously it is unknown at what point the manufacturer weighed and rated it. The ball weight was also more than rated. There is nothing I've added of any great weight consequence.

The reason I'm posting this is to show the actual available load differs between GTM & ATM due to the heavier than rated ball kg. So when working things out 2 calculations need to be considered. I used the Reich twice to measure the ball and then used the Milenco ball weigh spring I also have, they were too close to call. smile

Here's a screen grab of my figures, the green shaded area is the compliance plate data.
1613995290_van_kg.jpg
I've weighed my bedding at 9 kg, fill the tank an extra 33 kg (I know this as I filled the tank from a 20 lt jerry after I weighed the van) I estimate 10 kg for clothes. Which leaves me around 56 kg for food. Getting awful close to limit, lol. smile

1 user likes this post: Flatlander

#12

condor22
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From: Adelaide, SA
Joined: 16 December 2013
Posts: 2,126
Member
23 February 2021 02:18 pm

Well aware, smile Quite often, things like A/Cons, microwave, TV, Awning and other appliances are added after the compliance plate is fixed.

My opinion is, almost akin to false advertising. Not so hypothetical, but, some goes to a dealer, buys a van with rating plate in consideration of the tow vehicle. They then add their possessions for trip and might weigh these items (as I have) using bathroom scales and add to the GTM of the plate, thinking they are under the maximum loads. Only to drive through a roadside check to find they are overloaded. In this instance, it might be a warning or a fine and could be told they can't drive on until they reduce weight.

Even worse, in the event of an accident, find their insurance is void.

I bought my van new, it was a "Show" van from the dealer's showroom. It had all the extras as above plus TV, outside fold down table, wind up antenna etc. The compliance plate should reflect GTM, ATM and ball weight as it was sitting in the showroom. Or, at the very least have a WARNING STICKER OR SIMILAR to the effect it is heavier than rated.

#13

Ridge Runner
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Joined: 04 September 2014
Posts: 7,481
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23 February 2021 08:35 pm

Your Milenco Ball Scales are calibrated so they are a good place to start, Just out of interest what are their weighing Range ??

If you have any weight excess that the van can carry you could try shifting things like an AUX Battery further behind the Axle, Things like Generators are a pain because they rarely weigh what they claim on the Box, Mine gained 3Kg which is not good when you are trying to fine tune things like you are,

Microwaves weigh between 9 and 16Kgs on average and the Aircon is going to add another 15 to 25Kgs, The Aircon would have not been included in the Factories weighing of the Van because it is an optional extra, So Anything that was an Optional Extra is why you are seeing a difference in the total numbers,

Some of the extras are must have's so I would be looking at removing any of the stuff that is not used, I know it's not a thing you want to do which is why you bought it in the first place but it is an option,

Also Tyre Weight is another thing people forget about which changes rapidly between the brands.

And Maybe Down Sizing in the size of LPG Bottles could save you 10/15 kgs. Going from 2x 15kgs down to 2x 9kgs would be a saving of 12 to 15kgs also the bottle design would make a big difference, Some have huge handles and shields to protect the Valve and that will add even more weight.

Just a few things to consider,

Hope that helps.

Last edited by Ridge Runner (23 February 2021 08:40 pm)


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#14

condor22
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From: Adelaide, SA
Joined: 16 December 2013
Posts: 2,126
Member
23 February 2021 10:27 pm

RR Will have to have a look at the Milenco, either 3 or 400kg I've had mine a while.

My 2 LPG bottles are 4.5 kg, any smaller for a shower van and I may as well carry a cigarette lighter, lol.
Tyres, there is a minimum spec re load and speed and on the rating plate, they are what are specified, unfortunately nothing to see or gain here.
I use the microwave, to save LPG, one 4.5 bottle lasts me 10 days, mainly fridge use plus kettle boiling and a little cooking. (I'd get 13 or so days fridge only in winter)

I use most of what I have in the van. My point is that of the 335 kg of rated load for my van, the manufacturer/dealer used up about half of it after it was weighed in adding "stuff".

It came with one LPG bottle (empty), I added a second and filled them both, they weigh around 9 kg full each so I added approx 14 kg in the front boot where they live.
I've bathroom scale weighed what is in it, in the driveway i.e. saucepans, frypan, kettle, crockery (melamine) etc, sat system, tupperware (storage containers) and my plastic gold pan/sieve etc at less than 30 kg. Not a lot, but....

Add 9 kg bedding, 10 kg clothes, 5 kg footwear, it all adds up. Then there's food, I try to get in about 10 days worth to save tripping to the shop. Remember Oz distances aint pommie distances. smile I estimate near 50kg here (including a few beers). Then add 60 kg in the water tank, remember I free camp so no mains water.

I've add approx 170 kg which in terms of my 330 kg load is a bit over half. If I just looked at the plate and left it at that thinking "hey no prob, still got 160 kg to go" I'd be fooling myself. The fact is manufacturers are not being as open as they should be.

And, before someone says put it in the 4x4, it has drawers, recovery gear, Engel, 100 AH AGM, genny, detectors, coils, tools etc plus ball weight to contend with, so about 60 kg spare to GVM.

I will be under both GVM and ATM, but, I have trimmed a few things and need to share packing load appropriately between the 4x4 and van. Don't get me wrong, not a "sob story" just pointing out that a 3000 kg tow capacity is horizontal and I'm only towing about 1750kg, it's the vertical loads that are the ones to watch. smile

And, I only have a nudge bar, not a bull bar and no winch, they would truly "screw the pooch" for me, lol.

#15

Ridge Runner
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Joined: 04 September 2014
Posts: 7,481
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23 February 2021 11:38 pm

Yeah that 3000kg is misleading, If you were Towing a Car Trailer that weighs 650 to 750 Kgs empty then you can add 2250kgs as part of the Load shared between the 4b and the Trailer to take you closer to the GCM of the 4b,

The Caravan is way short of the GCM when hooked up together So I would be contacting the makers and ask them about a Plate Upgrade, Over here most companies offer a plate upgrade for around £50 to $100 for the Plate and they normally just add a pair of springs to the cost which normally gives you between 120 to 350kgs extra weight capacity, They most likely could fit your van with a pair of springs from the next size/model up and give you the plate for free "Fingers Crossed" which could give you an overall capacity of around 300 to 500kgs spare, You may never need that 500kgs etc but that figure is only keep you well clear of the Vans Rated Limits and take a load of your mind, "Pun Intended"

It would not hurt to ask them and seeing as they made it in the first place it is quite legal for them to carry out these changes.

Let them know you are very happy with the Van and that you don't want anything bigger and that it is more about just having that bit of headroom as per what the Plate says.

J.


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#16

Moneybox
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From: Cue, WA
Joined: 10 October 2014
Posts: 2,268
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Yesterday 01:27 am

It's ok to try to calculate your allowable weight when you head out but sometimes there are circumstances beyond your control.

1614088329_pot.jpg

When one of your passengers finds treasure what do you do?

1614088453_bottle_dig.jpg

1614088489_bottles.jpg

You just never know what that other person might sneak into the boot when you're not looking yikes

1614088665_assorted_sands.jpg

This is just a small bag from each different coloured meat-ant's nest wink

1614088763_flat.jpg

The result can cause unexpected delays and if it's going to happen just make sure there's no hidden treasure nearby hmm

1614088886_junk.jpg

Of course if you did like many of us have and married a gold-digger then some things just have to be put up with playful

1614089295_0.59-1.jpg

But whatever goes on on your travels, if you don't allow a little margin for that odd little extra that might be picked up along the way you might just find that something will give way ops

1614089454_spare.jpg


Phil, Sandra & Taz - GPX4500's, SDC2300's, White's Goldmaster GMT, Equinox 800, pans, sieves and more in a 4WD motorhome.

1 user likes this post: Ridge Runner

#17

condor22
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From: Adelaide, SA
Joined: 16 December 2013
Posts: 2,126
Member
Yesterday 11:53 am

Unfortunately my caravan is not suitable for a GTM/ATM upgrade. It uses the ALKO axle suspension (no springs) and a shocker either side.

Secondly, in Australia, GVM vehicle upgrades require Auto Engineer Certification not manufacturer. I'm not sure of any caravan ATM upgrades, not commonly a topic here.

1 user likes this post: Ridge Runner

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