DEEP CYCLE BATTERIES and BUSH POWER

condor22 said:

Had a look, cheap enough to try,

2 x AAA in the receiver, what and how many batteries in the transmitter modules?

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2 X AA in each xmitter....I've been pleasantly surprised at how long Alkalines hold up in the freezers in temps consistently below -15.

The instructions that come with the unit are in the usual Chenglish.....but here are the instructions for an Accurite product that seems to be identical in function, but slightly different in receiver physical configuration:

https://www. acurite.com/media/manuals/00986-instructions.pdf

You might have to delete a space before "accurite" for the link to work

Thanks, I use AAA in the Ironman, were Alkaline, but the moment they get to 1-2 C or lower they die fairly quickly. I went to the Lithium AAA, they are great for cold or freezers. I put 2 in my van fridge in mid June, for the 5 week trip. Am now at the end of a 5 day trip and still going strong. I barely got a week out of Alkaline.

Lithium are not cheap, but so far I reckon worth the spend.

Yep nothing beat Energizer Lithiums when it comes to Cold Temps, they are good to 40 below and have a 10 year shelf life :Y:

Finally got everything rewired and installed. I decided to remove the BM PRO on my van battery. Why? - Since I've had this device it has regularly "locked" up. To explain; it communicates via bluetooth to a mobile device, in my instance a Samsung Galaxy. When it is in idle mode the device on the battery flashes a green LED approx every 10 seconds. When I connect to it via the phone and it communicates the LED is a solid Blue colour. When I disconnect it returns to the flashing green LED. If it fails to connect the LED is a solid green colour.

The Tx/Shunt screws to the negative (-) terminal of the battery and all - cables fit to the other end of the shunt. There is one lead coming out of the device which fixes to the + terminal. Inside that cable are 3 thin wires, one to give + power to the bluetooth Tx, the other 2 are for battery temperature sensing.

I found that the only way to "unfreeze the device is to disconnect this + terminal from battery and reconnect. The issues here are;

1. This requires me to remove the dinette table, swivel leg and seat cushions, then open the compartment and remove the battery box cover. Doing this on an odd occasion is ok, but a pain in the posterior, on a regular basis.
2. When it reconnects it shows the battery at 50% for some time until it recalculates the battery's state of charge.

I did email this issue to the manufacturer several years ago, suggesting a possible reset function in the app. The reply was we will look into this and I've heard nothing since, other than an advert email re a version 2 now available for purchase.

Given the major rewire I've just done, I decided to go to a different method of monitoring and have removed the BM PRO from the van. The one on the 4x4 doesn't seem to have the same issue, and that battery is far easier to get to..............

Here are the additions;


Above- The lower control is for the Voltech 240 VAC charger (remote control). As the charger is under the seat, along with its 240 VAC GPO power source, I can use this remote to, among other things, turn the charger on and off. The upper remote is the battery management sensor visual display, a Projecta BM320. Under the seat is a 320 A max shunt on the - side of the battery. All - charge or load cables go to one end and the other to the battery. I won't go into the specs of the BM320, if you are interested, Google, lol. But here's the link anyway. https://www.projecta.com.au/dual-battery-systems-accessories-1/12v-smart-battery-gauge.

The pic (above) shows the charger is on and in float mode. The BM320 shows the battery is full, no loads (system idle). Of note, the charger is showing 13.3 V and the BM320 at 13.4 V. II am assuming the difference is very small as 13.34 will show 13.3 rounded down and 13.35 will round up to 13.4.


In the second pic I've turned the charger off, turned on a LED light, no solar. The BM320 shows the battery now at 13.3 V, 0.4 A load, the available AH and hours of run time with the current load and a battery % (100%). It also gives a battery condition at IDEAL. This has 4 levels - IDEAL, GOOD, FAIR & POOR. The battery is 5 years old, so happy with the battery condition.

I've installed these remotes on the bulkhead of the dinette seating at the opposite end to where I sit, so apart from not needing to pull the dinette seating apart to get to things, I can sit there watching TV, with a beer in hand, without standing and know how my battery is going.

I should add -

When not on 240 VAC the charger remote display is obviously off. When on 240 VAC regardless of the charger being switched on or off at the remote, the display times out and turns off. Pressing the alarm button will turn the display back on. (can't remember what I set this to)

I've set the BM320 display to time out after 5 minutes and by pressing enter or menu buttons the display turns on.

I no longer have a 240 VAC driven 12 V power supply, all loads are now connected to the battery via a fuse block. The fuse block + supply is switched between it and the battery to isolate all loads.

I added a USB port and CIG socket, to give me 4 x USB, 1 x dedicated CIG socket and from the 2 pin (32 V GPO) power point can plug in other items.

Those other items include a 150 W inverter, from which I can run an ultrasonic cleaner, and or charge my electric toothbrush. An adapter lead to plug in a triple cig socket block.

Most are to consider charging detector equipment or run my laptop.

GPX battery, Laptop power, 18650 Li-oN charger, SDC C cell battery charger, Uniden handheld UHF all need CIG sockets for charging.
Wireless headphones, wireless transmitter, mobile phones, power bank, Steelphase etc all need 5 VDC USB.
I can also charge my digital camera and movie camera from the inverter.

So instead of putting all this gear into a queue, it can all be on charge at the same time. I've found that doing this during daylight hours to be better, as the solar handles it all at no cost to battery capacity. The total load not including inverter is < 5 amps.

I run my Dometic D2 diesel heater about once a month when the van isn't used. Tonight I decided to do this with 240 VAC power turned off, battery full and note some power draw info at various stages. As heaters are mentioned in the General topic, I'll post a link to this post in that thread.

Above - The battery was showing 13.3 V just off Float charge and 100% full. The glowpin is operating along with the fan, note the 9.5 A load and the battery voltage at 12.4 V. If the battery was at rest (If I left it for a few hours) the voltage would be about 12.9 V, so it drops about 0.5 V under this load.

Above - Here the glowpin is off, and the fan is going like the clappers (jet turbine style, lol) It pulls 3.0 A and the voltage has gone back up to 12.6.

Above - Here the heater is on and idling as it is only holding temp, at 1.7 amps, however I also have a light on, so the heater is only using 1.2 amps, the voltage was changing from 12.5 to 12.6, so about the same as pic 2.

Above - The heater has been turned off, the glopin comes back on to burn off diesel around it for about 45 seconds and the fan slowly reduces to off. Thius was just before it went off.

There is more to say re the above - next post

I may have noted this before......

I'll give 2 examples to qualify why I turn my heater on sooner than later. Same scenario for both examples - Van is on battery power (no 240 VAC), temp in the van is 18 C and I know that tonight is going down to 8 C overnight. Current time is 1600 (4 pm for the 12 hr mob)

Example 1 - (approx values shown) The heater gets turned on at 1600 and set to 20 C, the glowpin only comes on for < 2 minutes = 0.3 AH. It goes fast for maybe 15 minutes to reach 20 C @ 3.0 A = 0.75 AH. (for a 2 degree temp increase) Then for the next 6 hours set to that temp it idles and uses (in my experience) approx 6 AH. Time now 2200 (10 pm). TOTAL AH used = approx 7 AH.

Example 2 - The heater gets turned on at 1900 (3 hours later) however, the van ambient is now down to 12 C and again from my experience will take at least an hour or more to get to 20 C = 3 AH. (An increase of 8 degrees) Then another 3+ AH for the next 3 hours to the same shut off as example 1. = 6+ AH.

In other words, you save sod all in battery by turning the heater on later. Similarly, the same logic applies to the amount of diesel used as the faster the heater, the more fuel used.

Very much up to the individual, but I prefer to have the comfort as soon as it's needed and less time listening to a "jet engine".

I like to keep a record of what I have done re the electrics, here's the latest wiring diagram

I have been having Issues with my 80Ah / 800cca AGM battery since February which was only 2 years old back then and I have been having to put it on charge between every 2, 3 and 4 weeks with the Van being Idle, I went to charge it the other day and thought it was a lost cause so I fitted the new Exide Battery I bought about a month ago which I had hooked up to a 3.5A NOCO smart charger since I bought it,

The Factory Ford AGM Battery was reading 11.7v and would not let the Bigger Noco Smart Charger run it's full Cycle, Anyways My brother had the same issue only he did not have a Smart Charger so I told what to do and he managed to get his battery to recover and after 24 hours rest his battery is holding 12.90 to 12.96v, Mine was in a lot worse state of health where it just did not like charging So I did the same thing to mine and now it seems to be holding it's Voltage fairly well and I think if I give it another Dose Of what I have been doing I think it will be back to as good as new,

So it seems like AGM batteries can be recovered because mine has always been a PIA ever since I bought it to the point where the Auto Stop/Start never worked on my Van unless I had driven about 300 miles / 500ks,

Anyways just don't go throwing out your lazy AGM batteries just Yet, :Y:

RR, What am I missing, read your last post and can't fathom your method? You told your brother to do the same thing and he recovered his battery "What, same thing?"

I sometimes think he must have a magic wand--but how does he use it?

Nightjar said:

RR, What am I missing, read your last post and can't fathom your method? You told your brother to do the same thing and he recovered his battery "What, same thing?"

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Patients my Friend.

I didn't go in to it yet because it is a work in progress But Now I am about to do the final stage,

Thing Is every time I charged my AGM within a few minutes the Voltage would drop down to 12.49 to 12.39 within 2 and a half minutes from coming off the Big Noco G26000 Smart Charger so I would have to charge it every couple of weeks, After using my Brothers AGM as a Test Pilot and that worked out really good I decided to try the process on mine,

So I got Big Red that's what I call my old fashioned type wheeled 35A/320A workshop charger and set it to Max = Number 3 setting and hooked it on to the 80Ah/800cca AGM that came out of my Ford Van/Camper, I hooked on my Fluke Multi meter on to the Charger Clamps and let her Rip until the Voltage Climbed up to around 15.060v,

At this point I switched the Amp setting to Number 2 and the Voltage was reading around 13.6 to 13.8v and I let her rip again until the Voltage got up to around 15.040 to 15.060v again, Then I switched it to Number 1 the lowest setting and left it to do it's thing and this time the Voltage got up to around 14.7 to 14.800v and then I disconnected Big Red,

At this point I hooked the Big Noco G26000 Smart Charger and set it to AGM and let it do it's thing, The light went through there charging process very quick and Once the Green Light was solid the Noco Chargers just sit there making a clicking/Pulsing sound about every 2 seconds So I left it doing that and it finally stopped doing that after 7 or 8 hours later, Once it had Stopped I Set the Noco to the REPAIR Mode which takes exactly 4 hours to the second,

Once it had turned off I checked the AGM with the Multi meter and after exactly 3 hours the battery was holding 12.78 Volt Which was a Good Sign, So then I thought I wonder if I do it again will it make it even better So after the 3 hours rest I hooked up Big Red again and it ran through the power levels going from 3 down to 1 Very quickly because it was fully charged So each phase did not take long to reach a peak of 15.0v +/- and once that was Done I hooked up the big Noco and let it charge the AGM Normally, which took about another 4 hours +/-, Once it had finshed the Clicking/Pulsing which is the equalizing stage I then set the Big Noco to the Repair Mode and again exactly 4 hours later it shut off,

SO Tonight I left the Noco hooked up to the AGM but it was turned of I left the Multi meter hooked up to the Charging Clamps and After 9 hours from being off Charge The AGM is now holding over 12.900v. So Now I am going to repeat the process one final time,

Please note You can not use a Normal charger to fully charge a Perfectly healthy AGM because that must be done with a Smart Charger because a Smart Charger fires it's power in short Pulses until it reaches it's peak as it did when I hooked it up to the AGM,

BUT If the AGM is messing about It will Not except those Pulses and a lot of the time the Smart Charger will keep resetting it's self and starting it's Charging process when it gets to a certain point So the battery Never gets Charged, This is where Chargers Like Big Red Come in to Play because they put out Constant Amps and Constant Volts So it forces the AGM Battery to except the incoming Power and once you repeat the 3 stages of Big Red and then Charge with the Noco and then use the Repair mode of the Noco and repeat the whole process again Your Lazy AGM will come back to life,

Sorry if I was a bit Vague before I posted this but if it all went Tits Up I did not want to waste any ones time, even more so if I blew the AGM to bits,

When I removed the AGM from the Van it was reading 11.7v and when ever I took it off the charger it was reading around 12.39v within 2 and a half minutes and that was about 2 or 3 months ago I noticed it doing that but it has been a right Royal PIA ever since I parked it out side back in February and Now it working again and now it is 10 hours off the charger and it is reading 12.898v, So I am going to give it One More Batch of the full treatment and leave it at that, because each time I have done this process the AGM has got better and Better and not forgetting it worked on my Brothers AGM also, So 2 for 2 is a pretty good result I reckon, :Y:

J.

A word of WARNING, if and when you attempt this a 3rd time in a Row Make sure that you put your Big Normal Charger on it's Lowest Setting because the AGM Battery Voltage will Rocket up over 15.0v in a matter of seconds and even on it's low setting it takes less than 5 minutes for the Voltage at the Clamps to reach 14.781v +/-, OK

Hope that helps.

J.

EDIT:- The Final Charge using Big Red only took 5 to 10 minutes and the Final Charge on the Big Noco took under 15 minutes and now in the Repair mode the Voltage has now peaked at over 16v as per The Noco's AGM Profile, this is the first time this battery has ever reached it's peak as per Specs.

1. An AGM in good condition, properly charged, then disconnected from the charger will read about 13.8 V (The Float voltage of many smart chargers) for a short period of time. This will then drop to the battery's "at rest" voltage, which for a good battery will be 12.8-12.9 V. This is the voltage my 5 year old 130 AH van battery holds. The actual voltage will vary slightly depending on ambient temp, (the above voltages are based on 25 C)

2. The only way to know if an AGM has "recovered" is to charge it and test it. My mate has such a tester, it applies a 100 A load for a few seconds whilst recording the voltage minimum during the test. As I mentioned previously, the 4by battery I buggered last year was charged several times after my mistake dropping the battery to 5-6 volts. I took it to him and the test showed that the 100 AH was now running at about 60 AH. In other words, although it still works, the capacity is drastically reduced.

3. The recommended charge rate for an AGM is between 10-20% of capacity. My van battery is a 130 AH = a charge rate of 13-26 amps. My new charger is fully adjustable from 10% to 100% of its rating of 30 A. I've set it to 7 on the dial which is 70% = a maximum charge rate of 21 amps - approx 16% charge rate for my battery. Mentioned before, charge at a lower rate takes longer, charge too high and this can damage the battery if not become dangerous.

4. If a battery is charged and drops to 12.4 V shortly after disconnecting the charger, it's not holding voltage and consequently will not hold the battery's full .

5. When in storage, keep an AGM on charge (mains or solar) to get the best life from it. Falls under "Preventative Maintenance"

Yes the can recover, but not fully.
Yes a higher or lower charge will still charge a battery, but not properly.
Yes a recovered battery will still work, but not to specified capacity.

So I work on one basic principle, Do it once, do it right !!

I probably won't be using my van for another 6 months. I can maintain my battery from solar or mains, as I have a 15 A power point nearby.

I have chosen 240 VAC for 2 reasons. (Solar is switched off)

1. With solar the Victron controller doesn't charge at night, so each morning it cycles through to float voltage at 13.8 V for the day. At night the battery goes back to 12.8 V at rest.

2. My 240 VAC charger is on all the time, it holds float at a constant voltage of 13.3 V (0.5 V lower than solar and any other of my chargers). This voltage causes minimal gassing of the battery. Plus every 4 weeks it goes through a full, brief charge cycle to condition the plates, which the Victron controller doesn't.

condor22 said:

1. An AGM in good condition, properly charged, then disconnected from the charger will read about 13.8 V (The Float voltage of many smart chargers) for a short period of time. This will then drop to the battery's "at rest" voltage, which for a good battery will be 12.8-12.9 V. This is the voltage my 5 year old 130 AH van battery holds. The actual voltage will vary slightly depending on ambient temp, (the above voltages are based on 25 C)

2. The only way to know if an AGM has "recovered" is to charge it and test it. My mate has such a tester, it applies a 100 A load for a few seconds whilst recording the voltage minimum during the test. As I mentioned previously, the 4by battery I buggered last year was charged several times after my mistake dropping the battery to 5-6 volts. I took it to him and the test showed that the 100 AH was now running at about 60 AH. In other words, although it still works, the capacity is drastically reduced.

3. The recommended charge rate for an AGM is between 10-20% of capacity. My van battery is a 130 AH = a charge rate of 13-26 amps. My new charger is fully adjustable from 10% to 100% of its rating of 30 A. I've set it to 7 on the dial which is 70% = a maximum charge rate of 21 amps - approx 16% charge rate for my battery. Mentioned before, charge at a lower rate takes longer, charge too high and this can damage the battery if not become dangerous.

4. If a battery is charged and drops to 12.4 V shortly after disconnecting the charger, it's not holding voltage and consequently will not hold the battery's full .

5. When in storage, keep an AGM on charge (mains or solar) to get the best life from it. Falls under "Preventative Maintenance"

Yes the can recover, but not fully.
Yes a higher or lower charge will still charge a battery, but not properly.
Yes a recovered battery will still work, but not to specified capacity.

So I work on one basic principle, Do it once, do it right !!

Click to expand...

Yes, My battery kept making the Charger reset and If I ran the repair mode it would put up an error making the Repair mode light flash and then switch to the AGM Charge Light flashing from one to the other,

Since doing this I have load/drop tested it and I have also used my other Sonic load tester it and the CCA has gone from 800cca to just under 900cca and after 10 hours off the charger it was reading 12.898v so I just re did all the steps I did before only because it was fully charged it took less than 20 minutes to use both chargers and now I am running the Repair mode for the last time,

By doing this has recovered 2 AGM batteries, This AGM is showing similar numbers as a brand new AGM does,

If I used a normal FLA battery to try an jump start the AGM battery in to charging would not work even though It had never been allowed to get below that 11.7v and I never have let this battery get this low before and that only happened because of the rain and you have to remove a lot of bits from the engine bay to get the battery out of the place where it fits, and the whole time I have owned this battery I have never seen it hold above 12.4v, But for some reason using both types of Chargers and the Repair mode seems to have beaten it in to submission and the battery is now performing like new.

Either way charging a stuffed AGM like this does work, I also checked my Alternator at Idle and it puts out 14.78v to 14.79v.

condor22 said:

I probably won't be using my van for another 6 months. I can maintain my battery from solar or mains, as I have a 15 A power point nearby.

I have chosen 240 VAC for 2 reasons. (Solar is switched off)

1. With solar the Victron controller doesn't charge at night, so each morning it cycles through to float voltage at 13.8 V for the day. At night the battery goes back to 12.8 V at rest.

2. My 240 VAC charger is on all the time, it holds float at a constant voltage of 13.3 V (0.5 V lower than solar and any other of my chargers). This voltage causes minimal gassing of the battery. Plus every 4 weeks it goes through a full, brief charge cycle to condition the plates, which the Victron controller doesn't.

Click to expand...

Yeah My Noco's will do similar, at just over 13.2+V they power up and pulse it up to around 15.8 +/- and then it shuts off and repeats it's cycle every few days, I didn't like Smart chargers at first but now I have seen what they can do I am liking them more and more, :Y:

According to Master Volt,

https://www.mastervolt.com/charging-batteries/

QUOTE,

Charge current

A rule of thumb for gel and AGM batteries states that the minimum charging current should be 15 to 25 % of the battery capacity. During charging, you usually continue to supply power to connected devices, and this power consumption should be added to the 15-25 %.

This means that a 400 Ah battery bank and a connected load of ten amperes requires a battery charger capacity of between 70 and 90 amperes in order to charge the battery in a reasonable time.

The maximum charging current is 50 % for a gel battery, and 30 % for an AGM battery. Mastervolt Lithium Ion batteries can be subjected to much higher charge currents. However, to maximise the lifespan of the Lithium Ion battery, Mastervolt recommends a maximum charging current of 30 % of the capacity. For a 180 Ah battery, for instance, this means a maximum charge current of 60 amperes.