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#251

Jaros
Moderator
From: S.E.Qld., QLD
Joined: 11 August 2013
Posts: 12,142
Moderator
01 December 2019 10:18 am

That's not a very nice way to put it!! sad
If that's the case with you you may as well not visit at all.


F1A4M2, Exterra 705 Gold, Ace 250, Goldrat 8" Dreammat River Sluice.

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#252

robmoto
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Joined: 09 May 2018
Posts: 112
Member
01 December 2019 11:17 am

Why not thera,s nothing like a good laugh in the morning .

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#253

bicter
Member
From: SW of Ipswich, QLD
Joined: 28 August 2013
Posts: 151
Member
01 December 2019 11:39 am

ctxkid wrote:

all i will say is each cell in a battery is approx 2.2 volts !

do the math

Is this a typo?
Not sure which battery chemistry you're referring to that has an open circuit voltage of 2.2V/cell (13.2V). ie, at rest and unknown state of charge.

Among similar batteries types, the cell voltage can vary at identical states of charge, dependent on the makeup/acidity/temp of the electroyte.

To quote from wiki on lead acid batteries: "IUoU battery charging is a three-stage charging procedure for lead-acid batteries. A lead-acid battery's nominal voltage is 2 V for each cell. For a single cell, the voltage can range from 1.8 V loaded at full discharge, to 2.10 V in an open circuit at full charge.

Float voltage varies depending on battery type (i.e. flooded cells, gelled electrolyte, absorbed glass mat), and ranges from 1.8 V to 2.27 V. Equalization voltage, and charging voltage for sulfated cells, can range from 2.67 V to almost 3 V.[16] (only until a charge current is flowing)[17][18] Specific values for a given battery depend on the design and manufacturer recommendations, and are usually given at a baseline temperature of 20 °C (68 °F), requiring adjustment for ambient conditions." & " If the open circuit voltage of AGM cells is significantly higher than 2.093 volts, or 12.56 V for a 12 V battery, then it has a higher acid content than a flooded cell; while this is normal for an AGM battery, it is not desirable for long life.
AGM cells that are intentionally or accidentally overcharged will show a higher open circuit voltage according to the water lost (and acid concentration increased). One amp-hour of overcharge will liberate 0.335 grams of water; some of this liberated hydrogen and oxygen will recombine, but not all of it"

#254

condor22
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From: Adelaide, SA
Joined: 16 December 2013
Posts: 1,835
Member
01 December 2019 12:55 pm

Funny, I post info that is of interest or make comments that are my opinion and that are not emotive and if wrong will say so when proven so. How that can be seen as bitching and sniping is beyond me..............

If someone else is wrong I'll try to support that argument and do so without be insulting to others, same same..............

Comment - Measuring individual cells for the layman at 2.2 V on a sealed AGM battery ????????

Last edited by condor22 (01 December 2019 12:56 pm)

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#255

xcvator
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From: Mornington Peninsula
Joined: 12 September 2016
Posts: 1,630
Member
01 December 2019 01:16 pm

Occasional_panner wrote:

LOL I don't come here much, but when I do I like to check this thread to see all the bitching and sniping you guys do here.

It's a good laugh.......

It's an electrical thread in a forum lol what else do you expect lol lol lol lol lol

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#256

madtuna
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From: , WA
Joined: 12 December 2012
Posts: 3,064
Member
01 December 2019 01:41 pm

like most wanting help threads, you ask 1 question, get 25 different answers and walk away more confused than when you began ops


Extremely handsome covered in a fairly thick coating of ugly
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#257

Ridge Runner
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Joined: 04 September 2014
Posts: 6,420
Member
02 December 2019 09:27 am

Condor your voltage quotes seem to be the normal as posted by others on the net Too, But where it all goes tits up is when we do our own testing,

Take my tests for instance, I'm using what I would call average run of the mill Duel Purpose FLA " Flooded Lead Acid" Deep Cycle batteries Yet the Voltages I am seeing after 5 hours Rest is 13.426v and above +/- and 36/48 hours later I am still seeing 13.300v and above, This high voltage is the reason behind why I am getting such long run times because my fridge is running for 9 to 10 hours before the battery voltage has dropped to 12.890v after 1 hours rest, And also the reason why I can get run times up to 5 or 6 days from a single battery before the Voltage drops to 12.20+ Volts after less than 30 minutes Rest, and when you take into account that these are Duel Purpose type deep Cycle Batteries it kind of contradicts all the negative views and comments about these type of batteries because I am getting longer run times and higher Voltages than those using normal DC and AGM Batteries.

Why am I seeing such high voltages and such long run times is partly because of how I am charging them and partly because of the temps here,

Because of all of the above is the reason why I have not moved to AGM batteries and the reason I have been slow to embrace Lithium type batteries and the overall cost of Lithium batteries over here is a total Rip off , just last week I bought 2 Lithium 40Ah / 512Wh battery packs which I have yet to start playing with because I have been waiting for another fridge to turn up which turned up today, and I am in the process of cooling it down ready to start testing it and then I will start testing with the lithium Packs, So fingers crossed on those 2 events,

Personally because of how my FLA's are behaving I just don't see the need to move to a different type of Battery Tech and the only thing I need to work on is how fast I can Charge them back up, In order to move things along I have bought another 2 150w Solar Panels to give me a total of 600w, 4 X 150w = 600w and I also have a 100w and a 100w portable Panel I am thinking of adding another 4 X 150w so I can get maximum power which means buying the Victron 150/70 MPPT or bigger ??.

As for all the stupid comments going back and forth and all the piss taking people need to knock it off For a Simple reason, We all use different Tech with different Supply Needs and different Charging systems, My setup is seeing higher Stored Voltage, Using batteries that Cause other people issues yet I am using Hi Tech Chargers that I hated within a week of buying them yet I am seeing better more usable results, We can't go calling BS when some one posts their views because unless we are ALL using the same setup then our results will not match what the next Guy See's, As for the Charts posted on the Net none of them are matching the results compared to what I am seeing, Battery power wise I am seeing the best results when it comes to stored Voltage Vs Run Times and my Current Draw is less due to the Ambient temps and that is also being multiplied by the much higher voltage my batteries can store, because sometimes after 11 hours rest my batteries are reading 13.436V and at 6 hours they have read 13.456V and after being taken off the charger I have seen the voltage go from 13.496V and an hour later it has settle at 13.502V which is really weird because how on earth can a batteries voltage go up after it has been disconnected from the charger, Damned if I know But it did happen just the same. yikes sad sad


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#258

condor22
Member
From: Adelaide, SA
Joined: 16 December 2013
Posts: 1,835
Member
02 December 2019 01:11 pm

To start with your Flooded Lead Acid batteries are different to AGMs and I'm not a big fan of them for caravan or 4x4 use.

Their charging voltage is typically lower than an AGM, particularly Boost mode.
The electrolyte needs to be monitored constantly and topped up.
They need to be kept vertical to prevent spillage.
Not recommended for confined space use i.e. under a caravan dinette seat smile

For me their only benefit is the price.

Re your voltages, my knowledge here is vague as 99% of my experience is with CCA under bonnet start batteries in the days of the 13.8V alternator charging smile so I'll leave that to others, sorry.

Good on you for getting such long run times, but my question/s would be, How deep are you cycling them and how long will they last? When you can answer both those Qs you will know if you are doing the right thing, lol.

I've said this before, "I spent most of my working life as an Electro/Mech Designer and with design there are many solutions to any one problem. Cost, available equipment and variety thereof, climate, environment, knowledge, time and personal bias are only some of the factors that will affect choice and outcome."

At the end of the day, if it works, works well and endures, it's right. smile

#259

ctxkid
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From: Up Ship Creek
Joined: 12 April 2018
Posts: 2,263
Member
02 December 2019 02:01 pm

more fun than a barrel of monkeys this thread

...


...................................................Such is life........................................................
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#260

Ridge Runner
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Joined: 04 September 2014
Posts: 6,420
Member
02 December 2019 02:23 pm

condor22 wrote:

To start with your Flooded Lead Acid batteries are different to AGMs and I'm not a big fan of them for caravan or 4x4 use.

Their charging voltage is typically lower than an AGM, particularly Boost mode.
The electrolyte needs to be monitored constantly and topped up.
They need to be kept vertical to prevent spillage.
Not recommended for confined space use i.e. under a caravan dinette seat smile

The Charging and Repair Mode Voltage Slowly works its way up from about 13.3 to a peak of 16.251V in a 4 hour period "exactly" 4 Hours, These Batteries are Semi Sealed as the have a vent on each end of the Battery So they can not be topped up or monitored in the same way as a Battery with Caps

For me their only benefit is the price.

Re your voltages, my knowledge here is vague as 99% of my experience is with CCA under bonnet start batteries in the days of the 13.8V alternator charging smile so I'll leave that to others, sorry.

Good on you for getting such long run times, but my question/s would be, How deep are you cycling them and how long will they last? When you can answer both those Qs you will know if you are doing the right thing, lol.

I have taken them down to as low as 30% Once "As Per the Manufacturers Specs" But ever since then I have been only taking them down to 50/60% SOC, Like I said the battery ran my fridge for 5 and a half days and the battery was still above 12,20V, These Batteries also have a 5 year warranty

I've said this before, "I spent most of my working life as an Electro/Mech Designer and with design there are many solutions to any one problem. Cost, available equipment and variety thereof, climate, environment, knowledge, time and personal bias are only some of the factors that will affect choice and outcome."

I am well aware of your Electrical Skills which is why I have always Directed any questions I have had in the past to You,

Cost is Not an Issue for me, If I see something I like or want I will buy It, But As of yet I have yet to see any Battery that impresses me enough to make me buy it, I have only bought these Two Lithium Packs as a Play Thing to do some tests with and the other one is a present for Someone, Otherwise I would not of bought any of them,

These FLA/SSLA Batteries will work out fine if I can run enough power in to them which is why I will be running an excess of Solar Panels Due to the Lack of Sunlight.

At the end of the day, if it works, works well and endures, it's right. smile


** **** ** ****

#261

Ded Driver
Member
From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 2,744
Member
02 December 2019 03:50 pm

I ran a SuperCharge dual purpose battery for close to 3 yrs prior to fitting a full Aux Battery system.
I didnt run it down below about 50% & it held up well. These can be good if you look after them.
I have an electronic battery/alternator system analyser & it reckoned the battery was still around 95% health just prior to a trip to the goldfields.
What killed it in the end was some rough roads ... broke a plate off in 1 cell (also shook my UHF aerial to bits at the base spring).
I now have a Century heavy duty 4WD battery with 'plate lock' for my cranking battery.

Last edited by Ded Driver (02 December 2019 03:51 pm)


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#262

Goldchaser1
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From: Kalgoorlie, WA
Joined: 28 February 2017
Posts: 969
Member
03 December 2019 04:07 pm

Probably the results of uninsulated dodgy wiring id say,spend the time and protect and fuse everything,this near new ranger spontaneously combusted in the work carpark 2 nights ago,he just bought it,i asked if it had dual batteries,it had system fitted amongst other stuff lately.....
1575349404_60291eb7-b417-44da-b359-5101e0ef160f.jpg

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#263

condor22
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From: Adelaide, SA
Joined: 16 December 2013
Posts: 1,835
Member
04 December 2019 01:04 am

That can do it smile

I'm about to install a 110W panel on the 4x4 roof, solar controller etc. I'm running the Negative to a spare roof rail bolt hole so only a short earth wire, but as for the positive.....

Will run about 50cm along the roof rail, in to the rear hatch. I'm looking to run it under the rubber seal and in between the outer body and the rear internal plastic panel, then forward to the battery which is just behind the rear seat. All up 3-4 metres of single core.

But the fuse will be near the panel somewhere up top. No point in fusing it near the controller as the wire has a fair length it could get damaged and short out. Already got the waterproof fuse holder, but until the panel is in place I won't know exactly where it will go.

My BCDC1220 Redarc isn't suitable as a controller, so a separate controller will go to the battery. As I don't want both solar and BCDC charging at the same time, I'm going to switch the panel manually as I don't use the fridge 24/7. I'm thinking of using the same type soft make 10 A circuit breaker as I have in the van on the solar input side. Apart from being switchable as well as added circuit protection, the breaker is designed not to arc n spark when connecting.

Just means remembering to make the circuit when I'm away from the car. If I use a relay the BCDC powers when driving and powers solar when not and I don't want to leave solar on the battery constantly when I'm not using auxiliary power.

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#264

condor22
Member
From: Adelaide, SA
Joined: 16 December 2013
Posts: 1,835
Member
06 December 2019 02:35 pm

Finally found a place to get some cheaper Aluminium Angle for the panel mount. Given my roof rack dimensions and the panel mount, I'll need to use 40x40x3 Alum Angle. Bunnings want $25/M or $68/3M. I found a wholesaler who will sell direct @ $62 for a 6M length and will cut into lengths to carry. Win Win smile Pick up Monday.

First thing I did this morning was take the panel out to the car and hook it up temporarily to check it and the controller work. Panel on the ground, wired to the controller then to the battery with no load, the panel output was 1.8 A @ 13.8 V.

I switched the Engel on and it's initial cooling current (fridge has been off for a few weeks) was 3.8A - no panel connected. I then connected the panel and was still showing 1.6 to 1.8 amps charge, the battery is near full.

So a total panel output of 5.4 to 5.6 amps.

FYI, I went cheap due to budget and bought a Supercheap 110W fixed panel, came with mounting hardware and a controller. Normal price was > $150, but they were on clearance for $124. I have a trade card for Supercheap, so I ended up paying $108. The panel is rated at a max output of 6.24 A (6.6 A short circuit current). Given that the panel was flat on the ground and not angled to the sun although sunny, it wasn't high noon, lol and the battery is near full, I'm happy with the output of an average of 5.5 A.

It's running the fridge and charging on top which is all I can ask..... smile

#265

mudgee hunter
Member
Joined: 02 January 2017
Posts: 1,895
Member
07 December 2019 08:13 pm

Recommendations....
Usually I camp out for 5 to 7 days. 38deg + on occasions.
I'm pretty happy with my few decent new style eskies,
Filled with frozen 2ltr milk containers.
But style/desire $$$ would be to have a small Freezer, enough to hold 4 to 6 2ltr milk containers for freezing only.
Then when the ones in the esky are half melted, rotate them once a day for the ones in the freezer.
Thus only opening it once a day, loosing less coolant energy.
And being still half frozen, less tax on the freezer.
What is my best buy$$$.
I have numerous batteries on hand. Even large 6v solar batteries I can bank.
200w pannel.
An 8ltr cooler fridge is solo not the go. There's 9ltrs in a box of beer alone!
So that ain't gunna cut it past 2 days!
I just want to be able refreeze half melted 2ltr containers of ice to get me through the 4/5th day to 7 days?
No generator, etc. Just a brand/make that dose the job really.
Week top. Using the above needs


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#266

Goldchaser1
Member
From: Kalgoorlie, WA
Joined: 28 February 2017
Posts: 969
Member
07 December 2019 08:34 pm

mudgee hunter wrote:

Recommendations....
Usually I camp out for 5 to 7 days. 38deg + on occasions.
I'm pretty happy with my few decent new style eskies,
Filled with frozen 2ltr milk containers.
But style/desire $$$ would be to have a small Freezer, enough to hold 4 to 6 2ltr milk containers for freezing only.
Then when the ones in the esky are half melted, rotate them once a day for the ones in the freezer.
Thus only opening it once a day, loosing less coolant energy.
And being still half frozen, less tax on the freezer.
What is my best buy$$$.
I have numerous batteries on hand. Even large 6v solar batteries I can bank.
200w pannel.
An 8ltr cooler fridge is solo not the go. There's 9ltrs in a box of beer alone!
So that ain't gunna cut it past 2 days!
I just want to be able refreeze half melted 2ltr containers of ice to get me through the 4/5th day to 7 days?
No generator, etc. Just a brand/make that dose the job really.
Week top. Using the above needs

12 volt fridges aint that crash hot on freezing large items quickly in warm weather,im not sure what ya talking of would be real successful.....

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#267

mudgee hunter
Member
Joined: 02 January 2017
Posts: 1,895
Member
07 December 2019 08:51 pm

Bugga ! Really, is there no 12v freezer that can freeze 4 to 6 two ltr containers of half frozen in 24 /48hrs ?

Last edited by mudgee hunter (07 December 2019 08:51 pm)


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#268

Ridge Runner
Member
Joined: 04 September 2014
Posts: 6,420
Member
07 December 2019 09:02 pm

Goldchaser1 wrote:

12 volt fridges aint that crash hot on freezing large items quickly in warm weather,im not sure what ya talking of would be real successful.....

Pre-freezing them at home would be a good place to start and then if you had about 6 milk bottles of Ice using them 2 at a time would be the way to go then a 12v would do the job, But The only ones that will freeze that amount of water in about 6 to 10 hours would be the Snomaters but they Chew a heap of power, Even in 22-25*c Temps they eat batteries and you would need at leased 300w of Solar to keep the batteries Fed. But Yes Snomasters will do it,


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#269

xcvator
Member
From: Mornington Peninsula
Joined: 12 September 2016
Posts: 1,630
Member
07 December 2019 09:37 pm

I think I'm about to get flamed lol

What the hell does temperature have to do with something working if it's done right 1st
Have you heard the expression "making mountains out of molehills " well that's exactly what most of the posts are doing.
You are getting too technical, KISS works well.
Simple system :-
1/have a look at the power draw of the item you want to install
2/ use cable larger than the max power draw
3/ Fuse at the recommended size

That's it, simple.
Goody2shoes, buy a 12v tv, forget the inverter if that's all you need it for.

Me, I need an inverter for running my cpap machine ( yes I know you can get 12 to 24 v converters that use more than an inverter ) and charge a laptop and camera batteries+ battery powered tools.

I have 450w of solar and 2x110aph agm batteries, I make my coffee on the gas top, hot water is on gas, fridge is 3 way , lights are 12v led.

My qualifications for these comments :-
I've been camping before most of you were born
I've been using 12v systems for the last 40 years
I've never had an electrical fire from 12v systems
I've never had an appliance burn out ( 12v )
I've always kept it simple ( if it's complicated you're doing it wrong, how do you find a fault )

Bring it on big_smile

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#270

xcvator
Member
From: Mornington Peninsula
Joined: 12 September 2016
Posts: 1,630
Member
07 December 2019 09:40 pm

mudgee hunter wrote:

Bugga ! Really, is there no 12v freezer that can freeze 4 to 6 two ltr containers of half frozen in 24 /48hrs ?

Yes there is, I've got 1, Bushman 50 liter perfect
It's frozen 1/2 a goon bag overnight on top of a thermal blanket when set @ -4 c

Last edited by xcvator (07 December 2019 09:44 pm)

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#271

mudgee hunter
Member
Joined: 02 January 2017
Posts: 1,895
Member
07 December 2019 10:00 pm

Awwwwh, geee. I just want cold beer on the 5th day!
Top up my esky with more home made ice bricks!!!!
Hoping if I don't open it every tens mins, but once every 24/36 hrs I can can get it to freeze!
Rotating the 2ltr containers whilst still half frozen!
I'm ok if takes a 40/50ltr to do it.
But can it be done logistically this way.
As an ice machine only
This way, you can be a it more self sufficient

Last edited by mudgee hunter (07 December 2019 10:05 pm)


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#272

Ridge Runner
Member
Joined: 04 September 2014
Posts: 6,420
Member
07 December 2019 10:27 pm

I am going to see how long it takes this little Dometic to freeze a round container of water that measures 105mm Wide by about 150/160mm Tall, Which holds just over a Litre,

I have frozen a Glass of water in about 2 to 3 hours in the ARB 47, The 78L has a bigger compressor and seems quicker

Last edited by Ridge Runner (07 December 2019 10:28 pm)


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#273

Redfin
Member
Joined: 26 February 2013
Posts: 2,554
Member
07 December 2019 10:36 pm

I agree with Keith,
Keep it Simple.

El cheapo [$85] 100w solar panel on the roof rack [flat]
A SCA $49.00 solar controller [Ridge Ryder]
Feeding a Full River 90 AH AGM,
running a 47l Evakool Fibreglass fridge

On 24/7 - 365 days a years for the last 4 years, in Melbourne.
Never let me down.


Det used - Whites 6000D, ML SD2000, ML SD 2001, ML SD 2200D, Garrett Infinium. Minelab SDC 2300. Minelab GPZ 7000.
Current Det - Garrett ASD Groundhog. . Minelab GPX 5000. Minelab GPX 4500.

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#274

mudgee hunter
Member
Joined: 02 January 2017
Posts: 1,895
Member
07 December 2019 11:14 pm

That's kool. Even a box of beer from The bottle shop cold can tax ice/fridge etc big time.
I always pre-ice it Cold as possible before leaving.
I have a few new style eskies, they are great even for storage.
Especially if you buy a few of the same brand,size. and they are stackable. Tie downs don't crush them, water/ dust proof.
I use one as slush esky, wet. Great for drinks. And one dry for butter etc.
Vac sealed frozen meat etc can be used as ice bricks for a while in the slush esky. Being sealed, they can float around with a beer without contamination.
Even frozen 1 Ltr of UHT milk make good ice bricks.
But I'm fond of freezing the popper size uht containers for coffee in the morning without waste.
An old wet towel over your esky is an old proven trick! Even if dusty water used.
Frozen 2ltr milk containers if rinced can be a savior if running short of water.
Or use them to extinguish the the fire place before leaving.
Wash the lids thoroughly before use but.
Real butter travels better than margarine.
Vac sealing a bag of flour will not only make it last indefinitely, becomes like a brick!
But very travel safe against breaking/mess/humidity/weavels.


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#275

Digger58
Member
From: Caloundra Sunny Coast Qld
Joined: 27 November 2019
Posts: 243
Member
07 December 2019 11:17 pm

I know my Engel can freeze a dozen 2litre blocks overnight. No idea really what size it is, either 80 or 90 litres, but the motor freezes down to -27 degrees C if the measuring gauge the fridgie/electrician used to measure it was accurate, which I assume it was as he uses it for work daily.

I don't use it for freezing though, just as a fridge and it stays at 3 degrees. It is two-compartment but not a split system as these new ones can do, mine is either freezer or fridge. I thought about the esky idea with ice blocks, but the power consumption would kill my batteries and also the bloody thing is so big it takes up half the cargo area so no room for an esky.

Do you really need that many 2litre bottles though? I reckon four bottles, two in the freezer and two in the esky and rotate. Four litres of ice in an esky would keep things cold every 24 hours.

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