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#1

ronniecruisin
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Joined: 28 July 2014
Posts: 269
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29 July 2019 11:42 am

Hi. All. Now I have a Deus and also knowing quite a bit more about PI machines than I used to I can't help thinking how relatively easy to create an extension of the Deus capabilities by XP could be by making a new PI circuitry Coil but still basically controlled by the standard remote with a Software update to suit. Now wouldn't that be the ants pants XP??? And yes. I know other companies have patents etc. But at least three other companies have successfully produced PI machines. Soooooooooooooo??????????. This would make the Deus a very desirable machine and coupled with its wonderful ease of use it would be an absolute winner. Any thoughts???? playful


Oh Well!...It's not the end of the world.....That'll probably happen tomorrow!

#2

mbasko
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From: Central West NSW
Joined: 27 January 2015
Posts: 4,036
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29 July 2019 01:01 pm

A machine that could alternate between Induction Balance (VLF) & Pulse Induction would be very desirable. Something that could transmit both even more so.
Whites were reportedly working on a hybrid IB/PI detector a few years ago (about 2015) & do have a patent for such a machine. Many have been anticipating a release but nothing has come & it's gone very quiet.
Not sure if another company could produce something similar without infringing on Whites?


Everything we use comes from mining or farming.

#3

ronniecruisin
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Joined: 28 July 2014
Posts: 269
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29 July 2019 03:02 pm

The design I'm suggesting does not run together. XP could use the same Double D coil as now. The PI electronics in the middle and the Mono wiring around the outside as is common now. Soooo. To change you simply swap the coil. Choose the PI mode on the remote and away you go. The whites version of PI as in the SPP they introduced was a fairly simple PI design.(I had one) And it worked quite well. What Im saying is if three other companies were able to produce and sell a PI and not get done for it surely another company could do likewise. Imagine..XPs magic wireless setup with a PI capability. Bring it on I say.?


Oh Well!...It's not the end of the world.....That'll probably happen tomorrow!

#4

mbasko
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From: Central West NSW
Joined: 27 January 2015
Posts: 4,036
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29 July 2019 05:37 pm

Yep even one machine that could alternate between IB & PI would be good but for me it would be best if it was a seamless change over with no swapping coils etc. Coil technology might be the bigger hurdle?

I'm not sure what's covered in the Whites patent but there may be hurdles there for other companies looking at hybrids or dual IB/PI detectors?
It's a bit more complex than different manufacturers having PI detectors - from what I'm aware of the basic PI design came from Eric Foster which was never patented. It's how that basic platform is changed by additional patented technology that stops manufacturers copying for instance with Minelabs DVT, MPS, MPF, SETA etc. They can't stop anyone making a PI detector but they can stop someone making one with any of their patented technologies. VLF's are the same - base IB technology but patented additions.


Everything we use comes from mining or farming.

#5

ronniecruisin
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Joined: 28 July 2014
Posts: 269
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29 July 2019 06:15 pm

Hmmmmm. Don't know if there would be enough room in one coil for both circuits? Personally It wouldn't bother me at all to change coils. In the Deus as you know its just pull out the end shaft and bung in another with the new coil on. And running both technologies simultaneously may not even be possible. And yes. Certain patented things you mentioned would not be possible but as others have proven I believe it should be possible to have some version of PI in the Deus. Even without some of these fancy software tricks it would still be amazing to have the PI ability in the Deus in any form. And as I said even the Whites machine worked quite well without the fancy add ons you mentioned. And it was deep too. It picked up an old penny at around two feet deep with a good strong signal. Not half bad for a basic PI with no bells and whistles.! Now imagine having that ability in your knapsack in the form of a spare quick change coil for your Deus. I'd be quite happy with that cool


Oh Well!...It's not the end of the world.....That'll probably happen tomorrow!

1 user likes this post: mbasko

#6

Ded Driver
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From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 2,208
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29 July 2019 08:03 pm

OR, would be really good if they could further develop the VLF circuitry to better handle mineralisation.


APLA member, GPX4000, modded SD2100, XTerra705, GM1000, Whites MXT Pro, Nokta Pointer, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#7

ronniecruisin
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Joined: 28 July 2014
Posts: 269
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29 July 2019 08:22 pm

Sorry to disappoint you Ded Driver. That will never happen because of the constraints of VLF. I've had it from a detector builder. VLF has been taken as far as it will go. The physical limit has been reached!


Oh Well!...It's not the end of the world.....That'll probably happen tomorrow!

#8

Ded Driver
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From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 2,208
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29 July 2019 10:09 pm

ronniecruisin wrote:

Sorry to disappoint you Ded Driver. That will never happen because of the constraints of VLF. I've had it from a detector builder. VLF has been taken as far as it will go. The physical limit has been reached!

interesting what Minelab have done with VLF over recent years with the CTX & Equinox Multi Frequency & the Gold Monster 'Ultra-wide dynamic range' .... some further tweaks may still be possible
we can always wish smile


APLA member, GPX4000, modded SD2100, XTerra705, GM1000, Whites MXT Pro, Nokta Pointer, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#9

ronniecruisin
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Joined: 28 July 2014
Posts: 269
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29 July 2019 10:43 pm

Yes. Interesting. But they can tweak em forever but a VLF will never go as deep as a PI in mineralized ground. I've personally dug a target at post hole shovel depth with a PI. You wont ever have to do that with a VLF.


Oh Well!...It's not the end of the world.....That'll probably happen tomorrow!

1 user likes this post: mxt sniper

#10

hippyhunter
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Joined: 06 November 2017
Posts: 100
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06 September 2019 08:12 pm

If such a coil was available for about a grand it would be a great thing. I think most current owners would get one and it would attract a heap of new potential customers to the xp format.
I would love a pi coil to achieve more depth. Handling hot ground better is also nice for many i assume, but i am not too fussed about that compared to extra depth

#11

ronniecruisin
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Joined: 28 July 2014
Posts: 269
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06 September 2019 11:30 pm

Yes. Maybe its time for Clegy to chime in and let us know what he thinks. He'd sell a bucket load of em if they existed. And yes. I think a grand for the upgrade coil and software kit would be fair too. Bring it on XP cool


Oh Well!...It's not the end of the world.....That'll probably happen tomorrow!

#12

hippyhunter
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Joined: 06 November 2017
Posts: 100
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07 September 2019 08:26 pm

Actually, i couldnt get my cash out fast enough at $1500-$2k. I know it would be quality and the convenience and novelty of being "all in one" has to be worth something.
That would price a vlf/pi starter kit at about $4k.

Thats still a very competitive deal vs a gpx5000. A grand cheaper with vlf capabilty included. Would have to be a grand cheaper imo due to not being a proven (yet alone existing) pi platform. (Much like qed at the moment).

I really dont like our chances much, but it is a nice idea to contemplate

#13

hippyhunter
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Joined: 06 November 2017
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07 September 2019 08:28 pm

Applagies.. i meant just like the qed recently (being an unproven pi platform)

#14

Ded Driver
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From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
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07 September 2019 10:21 pm

there is a fundamental difference in signal generation between PI & VLF in the box.
Varying Pulse Square Wave vs Sine Wave of a (usually) fixed or multiple frequency.
The coil is not where the engine is! A 'hybrid' box producing both would be the closest thing to what you are after, but the coil would be a compromise between the 2 types/frequency of signal.... assuming you are trying to run both signals simultaneously

Last edited by Ded Driver (07 September 2019 10:23 pm)


APLA member, GPX4000, modded SD2100, XTerra705, GM1000, Whites MXT Pro, Nokta Pointer, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#15

ronniecruisin
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Joined: 28 July 2014
Posts: 269
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07 September 2019 10:22 pm

Hi. Hippyhunter. I'm afraid you're getting a little bit beyond the point here. First of all you are not going to get a gpx5000 performance here. Patents and reduced build room would I suspect keep performance a little more basic. But still a PI so still way better and more useful than the current Deus. And as to price a basic PI design is not expensive to build. The whole point of the QED was to produce a good value PI at a much more affordable price than a ml but still have very respectable specs. It's a great detector that nearly everyone involved in this hobby can afford. To quote $4000 for the Deus would IMHO kill the whole idea. But I suspect it'll never happen anyway. Just a pleasant dream methinks! Be nice though hey???


Oh Well!...It's not the end of the world.....That'll probably happen tomorrow!

1 user likes this post: Ded Driver

#16

ronniecruisin
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Joined: 28 July 2014
Posts: 269
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07 September 2019 10:33 pm

Hi. Ded Driver. I'm talking only the PI engine in the coil/stem. The kit would be lower stem and coil plus the appropriate software update for the remote. So to activate the Deus PI you remove the lower stem with the VLF coil. Fit the PI lower stem and coil and choose PI mode in the remote. Soooo. Your not mixing the two types at all. Totally separate. The remote talks to the PI coil just as it does now to the VLF one.


Oh Well!...It's not the end of the world.....That'll probably happen tomorrow!

#17

Ded Driver
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From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 2,208
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07 September 2019 10:38 pm

ok, caught up with you now Ronnie. Interesting concept you have suggested


APLA member, GPX4000, modded SD2100, XTerra705, GM1000, Whites MXT Pro, Nokta Pointer, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#18

ronniecruisin
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Joined: 28 July 2014
Posts: 269
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07 September 2019 10:44 pm

Basically the same as now if you buy a new VLF HI coil for your Deus. Coil and stem. big_smile


Oh Well!...It's not the end of the world.....That'll probably happen tomorrow!

#19

hippyhunter
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Joined: 06 November 2017
Posts: 100
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07 September 2019 10:55 pm

ronniecruisin wrote:

Hi. Hippyhunter. I'm afraid you're getting a little bit beyond the point here. First of all you are not going to get a gpx5000 performance here. Patents and reduced build room would I suspect keep performance a little more basic. But still a PI so still way better and more useful than the current Deus. And as to price a basic PI design is not expensive to build. The whole point of the QED was to produce a good value PI at a much more affordable price than a ml but still have very respectable specs. It's a great detector that nearly everyone involved in this hobby can afford. To quote $4000 for the Deus would IMHO kill the whole idea. But I suspect it'll never happen anyway. Just a pleasant dream methinks! Be nice though hey???

Was going off a current price with hf coil and remote is a bit over 2,000 last time i looked. Then an extra 1-2000 for the pi kit.
I wouldnt at all expect it to rival a gpx or such machines, but i reckon if the lone guy that made a pretty decent pi detector (qed)can do that much, a company such as xp should be able to make something half decent at least.

On the qed i think even if it had turned out to be a gpx killer, initially it still would have needed to be at a lower price point to gpx until it gained in reputation at least. It seems the guy making them is pretty commited to keeping them at an affordable price permanently though. (I am considering one at the moment myself)

#20

hippyhunter
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Joined: 06 November 2017
Posts: 100
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07 September 2019 10:57 pm

Ded Driver wrote:

there is a fundamental difference in signal generation between PI & VLF in the box.
Varying Pulse Square Wave vs Sine Wave of a (usually) fixed or multiple frequency.
The coil is not where the engine is! A 'hybrid' box producing both would be the closest thing to what you are after, but the coil would be a compromise between the 2 types/frequency of signal.... assuming you are trying to run both signals simultaneously

Yeah sorry to be unclear ded. I meant running one at a time by changing coil etc. Not simultaniously

1 user likes this post: Ded Driver

#21

Ded Driver
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From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 2,208
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07 September 2019 11:10 pm

elsewhere on the forum I have read that Whites were at one stage supposedly working on a hybrid PI/VLF ... Nothing seems to have ever come out of it tho.
The GPZ is apparently a bit like a hybrid .... but at a price!


APLA member, GPX4000, modded SD2100, XTerra705, GM1000, Whites MXT Pro, Nokta Pointer, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#22

ronniecruisin
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Joined: 28 July 2014
Posts: 269
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07 September 2019 11:15 pm

The QED is a good choice Hippy Hunter. Howard is a very dedicated guy. I've worked with him. He's one of those rare people who never gives up till he gets it right. The QED is good value because he wanted it that way.


Oh Well!...It's not the end of the world.....That'll probably happen tomorrow!

#23

hippyhunter
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Joined: 06 November 2017
Posts: 100
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08 September 2019 12:01 am

I think that whites detector talk eas from about 4-5 years ago. I guess it wasnt such an easy thing to achieve seeing as not heard more by now.

The qed kind of reminds me in my mind of using the deus. Light and harness free. The harness and weight is the main thing i dont like about minelab pi's

#24

ronniecruisin
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Joined: 28 July 2014
Posts: 269
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08 September 2019 09:57 am

Yes they are heavy. Used em for years. Other option that Im using now and loving it is a whites TDI pro OZ. The only PI with discrim ability. Plus good balance. I can happily swing it with no harness and I have back problems.


Oh Well!...It's not the end of the world.....That'll probably happen tomorrow!

#25

mbasko
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From: Central West NSW
Joined: 27 January 2015
Posts: 4,036
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08 September 2019 10:38 am

ronniecruisin wrote:

The only PI with discrim ability.

Not quite right. Minelab P I's have had Iron Reject since the SD2200D. It's not perfect by any means but does work. You do need to use a DD coil.
The Garrett ATX also has an iron check feature & adjustable discrimination.
Fisher Labs Impulse AQ PI detector which is to be released soon & is aimed at beach detectorists will also have discrimination abilities (said to be better than anything available in PI now).
The TDI "discrim" isn't perfect either & will only blank out either high or low conductors which can mean missed gold depending on setting.
I wouldn't be 100% trusting any current form of PI "discrim" & would only use in the worst possible junk area/s.
If you want good, accurate discrimination abilities you need to use a VLF.
A VLF/PI machine would be most advantageous if it had the ability to run simultaneously or be easily switched over to VLF on the run to discriminate/check targets more accurately & even then gold can still fool a VLF.

Last edited by mbasko (08 September 2019 10:45 am)


Everything we use comes from mining or farming.


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