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#1

Theduke
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From: , NT
Joined: 29 April 2017
Posts: 120
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19 January 2019 11:51 pm

Playing with my uv light and thought I would share some information with everyone. What it comes to rubies there’s one very easy way to tell if you have a Burmese ruby. All rubies will fluorescence under a uv light but to differentiate the difference between Burmese, a natural ruby from somewhere else and a synthetic ruby you have to look for patterns in the stone and the particular colour it shines.

1547899173_aebb84d0-a0b4-4885-8f7f-d50d7321f59a.jpg

As you can see in the above photo the Burmese ruby really glows under the uv light

1547899459_03b0f6d7-5411-490d-b9af-3e59e42b38d1.jpg

Above is a parcel of small rough which has a bonus piece of burmese in the parcel the colour difference is extremely noticeable.

I’ll put up some more photos tomorrow sometime showing glass filled and synthetic rubies.

3 users like this post: Ded Driver, Detectist, Brumble-Gum

#2

Theduke
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From: , NT
Joined: 29 April 2017
Posts: 120
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20 January 2019 11:23 pm

I haven’t forgotten, just can’t get the photos that clearly show the differences. I’ Going to try a couple of different camera setups to hopefully get the shots

The other small rough in the last photo above are from Thailand as well

Last edited by Theduke (20 January 2019 11:24 pm)

1 user likes this post: Brumble-Gum

#3

Theduke
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From: , NT
Joined: 29 April 2017
Posts: 120
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08 February 2019 12:30 am

Here’s a glass filled ruby at 60x magnification under white and uv light. You can clearly see the air bubbles. I will upload more information as I can get the photos that are clear enough to show the differences

1549546057_cf284caf-036f-4058-95da-0450ed81c68f.jpg
1549546097_e5ed4309-cfb3-4259-996a-e4c9f5d1cd33.jpg

#4

Theduke
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From: , NT
Joined: 29 April 2017
Posts: 120
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08 February 2019 12:33 am

Also like a heated sapphire you can see the heat lines across the surface of the stone, I forgot to mention it’s also heated. These types of rubies are created by taking low grade materials then heating and filling the imperfections inside with a lead glass

#5

Mr Magoo
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08 February 2019 12:50 am

And the disaster as it comes out the furnace. argh

https://www.prospectingaustralia.com.au … p?id=26780

#6

Theduke
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From: , NT
Joined: 29 April 2017
Posts: 120
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08 February 2019 12:54 am

Here ‘s a heated sapphire as you can see the lines are more pronounced

1549547646_c0800cac-b3f8-4d33-b4cc-e4a29a5a2297.jpg
1549547679_8d59565e-90de-44bc-b4e7-45a73c88978d.jpg

1 user likes this post: goody2shoes

#7

Theduke
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From: , NT
Joined: 29 April 2017
Posts: 120
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08 February 2019 01:22 am

Untreated Ruby lower grade

1549548491_73466c11-afed-4e84-bd62-0c64f671425f.jpg
1549548516_8817567a-25f3-463e-b077-128aed3ffa0b.jpg

Untreated middle grade as you can see there’s air pockets in this one but they’re irregular shapes not spherical in shape. Hopefully the photos are nice and clear, damn hard to get a good focus point with all the light

1549548856_954e99d2-ba27-43b3-b8d2-fb95e687a45c.jpg
1549549265_8d941e82-bdde-4b7a-a9a0-3a4d7a4fff44.jpg

1 user likes this post: goody2shoes

#8

Mr Magoo
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09 February 2019 12:22 am

Can you expand on this? Citations?

Not under standing what creates the 'heat lines'.

#9

Dihusky
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From: Gold Coast, QLD
Joined: 16 June 2017
Posts: 520
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09 February 2019 01:23 pm

Interesting, have always kept well away from modified ruby, Sapphire though I believe is far more accepted as heat treated?

Do you know what temp your Sapphire examples were treated to, as I have read that this is fairly critical? From what I gather, rightly or wrongly, a temp of 1750C with a soak and slow cool produces the best results, but not many can afford a furnace that can do this, let alone get their money back on the investment when you add in electricity costs as well. sad

Because of this, heat treatment to lower temperatures is common but produces poorer results??

Last edited by Dihusky (09 February 2019 01:24 pm)

#10

Mr Magoo
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09 February 2019 01:48 pm

Depends on what you are trying to achieve. Got a list of temps somewhere.
But for composites like those above it can be as low as 900*C

A few ways of detecting heat treatment but I've never heard of 'heat lines'.

Last edited by Mr Magoo (09 February 2019 01:50 pm)

#11

Dihusky
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From: Gold Coast, QLD
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09 February 2019 02:12 pm

I believe this is the temp used for dissolving out inclusions etc and improving clarity as 1750C virtually allows the stone to re-grow in a controlled environment.

#12

Mr Magoo
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09 February 2019 02:54 pm

Yes. But it depends on what you are trying to achieve by heating the stone.

Just had a quick google and found they will use temps surprisingly low at 550*C
https://www.gia.edu/gia-news-research-l … bique-ruby

#13

Mr Magoo
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09 February 2019 03:10 pm

If I find that Lava plains saph I mentioned in Lefty's (Stones I've cut) which I gave to my daughter (so not holding my breath) I'll try and get some pics.
It was a very ritulated/opaque stone. Sent it up to Sapphire to have it cooked after I cut it (I only did that one pre cut one for heating). Cleared it up immensely. Some rutile left but unfortunately one of the inclusions ruptured near the surface and it ended up with a tiny pit on the table(?) surface that looked like a speck of dust.
There were definitely no lines left after that treatment, which would of been high temp. I don't recall any other evidence of heating that I recall

#14

Mr Magoo
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09 February 2019 10:51 pm

Post #6 My interpretation. Could well be wrong and happy to be proven so. Yes, heat treatment but not for clarity but to add filler and colour.

1549712978_cobolt.jpg

Last edited by Mr Magoo (09 February 2019 10:52 pm)

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#15

Theduke
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09 February 2019 11:31 pm

Here’s a link for more information, I’m referring to the information corresponding to page 128. As I have a higher zoom than the photos in the book I think that’s where it looks different. I will look again after I get home Monday to verify the treatment for the sapphire I could have mixed up the stone information due to the time I decided to add to the thread the other night when I couldn’t sleep. Here’s a page wih some more information on heat treating

https://www.gia.edu/doc/Heat-Treating-R … pphire.pdf

#16

Mr Magoo
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10 February 2019 12:05 am

Gotcha (I think, at least I hope). And thanks for putting up where you were getting the info from.
An interesting read. In figure 7 I believe the stone on the left has lines because of how the diffusion atom have penetrated the surface layer adding colour, but at facet junctions you're see a double dip on the colour as two surface angles meet. So hence lines.
In the stone on the right of image figure 7 my interpretation (as I read it) is the lines are banding created by different chemical make up as crystal grows. In that stone it looks like it is one side of the crystal.
Yes, they have been heated but that's a secondary thing in these cases.
This is only my thoughts TD.
Also my interpretation of looking for evidence of heating only is heat stress fractures around inclusions, broken rutile needles and chalky looking areas under UV. Two of these I have seen on stone I have had cooked.
I don't know of any others but that's not saying that is it all. .

As a side note any evidence of bubbles round or not is not good. I did google about that and corundum can have bubbles of CO2 but it read as it is fairly unusual. So I would be suspect that all those stones have been filled.

Great photo's too. But I think you may need to try dark field photography for some of these images. I've been trying to get a set up going over the last couple of weeks but not getting the time.

Last edited by Mr Magoo (10 February 2019 12:16 am)

#17

Mr Magoo
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11 February 2019 09:02 pm

Sapphire Heat and Pressure Treatment 1 of 5

A relatively new type of heat treatment for those who are interested.

Had to split the pdf.

https://www.prospectingaustralia.com.au … e01-04.pdf

Last edited by Mr Magoo (11 February 2019 09:10 pm)

#18

Mr Magoo
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11 February 2019 09:04 pm

Sapphire Heat and Pressure Treatment 2 of 5

Quite a few images hence the huge file.

https://www.prospectingaustralia.com.au … e05-05.pdf

Last edited by Mr Magoo (11 February 2019 09:10 pm)

#19

Mr Magoo
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11 February 2019 09:05 pm

Sapphire Heat and Pressure Treatment 3 of 5

https://www.prospectingaustralia.com.au … e06-06.pdf

Last edited by Mr Magoo (11 February 2019 09:10 pm)

#20

Mr Magoo
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11 February 2019 09:09 pm

Sapphire Heat and Pressure Treatment 4 of 5

https://www.prospectingaustralia.com.au … e07-07.pdf

#21

Mr Magoo
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11 February 2019 09:12 pm

Sapphire Heat and Pressure Treatment 5 of 5

https://www.prospectingaustralia.com.au … e08-10.pdf

#22

Dihusky
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From: Gold Coast, QLD
Joined: 16 June 2017
Posts: 520
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11 February 2019 09:29 pm

Hmmm, need some time to digest this, certainly specialised gear to do 1500C+ at 900bar, not for the back-yarder!

#23

Theduke
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From: , NT
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Posts: 120
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11 February 2019 11:21 pm

So that sapphire is a heat treated dyed one ?♂️. Once I get my act together and get the other photos to show what I was originally talking about I’ll post them. As for the inclusions in the last ruby I will need to study them a bit more in different angles so I can clarify their exact nature as they can be a couple of things. Sorry for the misslead due to tired brain and late night of posting, I will come back with the information I was originally trying to convey once I can get the focussed photos that correctly correspond with the info. I will also cover the dark inclusion in the last ruby

#24

Theduke
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From: , NT
Joined: 29 April 2017
Posts: 120
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11 February 2019 11:31 pm

As for heat treatments only, it’s more accepted in sapphires than it is in rubies. As they’re the same family it shouldn’t be such a big difference but is.

If you’re able to get a completely untreated stone that looks good at a decent price it’s worth it even if the cut is ordinary. In most cases you’re able to value add by getting the stone precision cut and while losing some carat weight.

#25

Mr Magoo
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11 February 2019 11:53 pm

One of the ways to check if a bubble is air (gas) is to view it in 'dark field' lighting. Apparently, if gas, the bubble will be black. I haven't done this so can't verify it. But Dihusky may be able to confirm that being a photography bloke.

I'm no expert, not even close, but do a bucket load of reading on GOL and download any papers that turn up there and have done for years. (I found that paper I just posted, on there today just while rummaging around for anything interesting)

Theduke wrote:

So that sapphire is a heat treated dyed one

I'm 'suspecting' it's filled with cobolt blue glass. Somewhere I have a similar image, if I find it I will post. So the blue of the glass adds the colour to the stone.
I (personally) just don't believe the stones have just been heated for clarity or colour. That pdf I put up shows pretty much the evidence I know of, stress (tension) fractures and crystal alteration. The lines do not mean they have been filled but bubbles is evidence and also blue flashing (which is in the video that's linked to post #5).
To me that looked present in some of the images but didn't comment earlier as it's so hard to tell from an image. But you may know as you have the stone with movement.

And please don't take what I say as gospel, I'm just basing it on personal reading/study I have done but the evidence is pretty consistent. I just haven't come across the lines theory before. So interested in what you have.

No need to apologize for anything. You may be right and anyway that's what forums are for. It far more interesting when a thread like this is started, it always gives food for thought. thumbsup

Last edited by Mr Magoo (11 February 2019 11:57 pm)

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