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#1

Ded Driver
Member
From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 423
Member
04 October 2018 10:07 pm

rather than highjacking other threads, & with the xmas holiday season approaching, & myself & a couple of people I know doing vehicle electrics upgrades &/or add-ons, I thought it relevant to start an open thread for people to share ideas, experience, hints, photos & anything else to do with dual battery systems.
I am looking into Lead Crystal Deep Cycle batteries & finding some interesting pros & cons about them.
The main 'pros' points that I like are high cycle life, deep discharge beyond 50% (they say up to 100% wont kill it) & a discharge voltage curve near to that of a lithium at half the price of lithium.
The 'cons' side, whilst they are good to 60degrees they are not good in the engine bay, & they come at a premium price above std AGM .. Betta brand 100Ah $595 on this site https://leadcrystalbatteries.com.au/pro … c98ba2045f
or Pure Energy (currently on sale) https://www.pureenergybatteries.com.au/ … cle-lead-a
and tho you can use a normal smart charger (set to AGM), it needs to have a current output of 1/3 the rated Ah of the battery, ie the 100Ah battery needs to be hit with at least a 30A charger!
The data sheet for the Betta battery can be downloaded from their website, there is a download link on the link I posted above.
Here is an extract of that datasheet
1538651202_betta_lcb_6-cnfj-100ah_datasheet_extract.jpg


APLA member, ML GPX 4000, ML SD2100, ML Xterra 705 Dual Pack, ML GM1000, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

1 user likes this post: ctxkid

#2

Ded Driver
Member
From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 423
Member
05 October 2018 02:35 pm

links to some DC-DC battery chargers
Redarc: https://www.redarc.com.au/battery-charg … e-chargers
Thunder: https://thunderauto.com.au/product-tag/battery-charger/
Project: https://www.projecta.com.au/battery-chargers/
Ctek: https://www.ctek.com/products?category= … mmendedfor
https://www.ctek.com/products?category= … mmendedfor
Tridon Matson: https://www.tridon.com.au/products/Mats … y-chargers
Enerdrive: http://www.enerdrive.com.au/product/epo … y-charger/
Intervolt: http://www.intervolt.com/product/in-veh … y-charger/
a range of chargers from Outback Marine: https://www.outbackmarine.com.au/power- … -chargers/
BatteryLink available from Autoelec (other retailers also sell these): https://www.autoelec.com.au/battery-lin … dc-charger

I was going to go for the Projecta IDC25 but as I want a 100Ah Lead Crystal battery I need a 30A or 40A charger, so the search is ongoing. argh

Last edited by Ded Driver (05 October 2018 02:37 pm)


APLA member, ML GPX 4000, ML SD2100, ML Xterra 705 Dual Pack, ML GM1000, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#3

ctxkid
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From: Up Ship Creek
Joined: 12 April 2018
Posts: 1,451
Member
05 October 2018 05:02 pm

here ya go

https://www.projecta.com.au/dual-battery-charger-idc45/


........................................Such is life...............................................
Oldest Copper coin 1799 left seated half penny, Oldest Silver 1834 Shilling

#4

Ded Driver
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From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 423
Member
05 October 2018 05:08 pm

Cheers CTXKID, somehow I had overlooked the IDC45. That's a beast, not sure if its tooooo big tho, will have to check that out yikes
the Projecta are damned good having an 80degree op temp limit!

Last edited by Ded Driver (05 October 2018 05:19 pm)


APLA member, ML GPX 4000, ML SD2100, ML Xterra 705 Dual Pack, ML GM1000, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#5

ctxkid
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From: Up Ship Creek
Joined: 12 April 2018
Posts: 1,451
Member
05 October 2018 05:12 pm

there is no substitute for capacity cool


........................................Such is life...............................................
Oldest Copper coin 1799 left seated half penny, Oldest Silver 1834 Shilling

#6

Ded Driver
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From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 423
Member
05 October 2018 05:20 pm

ctxkid wrote:

there is no substitute for capacity cool

as in the old engine quote "there is no substitute for cubic inches!" playful


APLA member, ML GPX 4000, ML SD2100, ML Xterra 705 Dual Pack, ML GM1000, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#7

Ded Driver
Member
From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 423
Member
05 October 2018 05:24 pm

helpful bit of data on cable size here;
https://jaydeeautocables.com.au/pages/cable-size-chart


APLA member, ML GPX 4000, ML SD2100, ML Xterra 705 Dual Pack, ML GM1000, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#8

Ded Driver
Member
From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 423
Member
05 October 2018 05:39 pm

An email response I just received from Jason Marshall at Betta Batteries (for charging a lead crystal battery, enquiry on a 100Ahr with a 40A charger)

Hi Shane
You don't have to charge it at 30% every time but you will need to occasionally.
I would use a 6-CNFJ-90 with a 25Amp DC to DC. This is "just" in the size window...but I would increase it to a 40 if you can. Keep in mind the 30% is the minimum.
I like the 40 because when the battery is flat you have enough current to run the fridge etc AND charge the battery. But don't be afraid to save A LOT and just use a 90 with a 25Amp DC to DC. We have hundreds and hundreds out there all over Australia and get very few failures. It's a good solid combo.
I say the 90 because that part number is the equivalent of a 100 AH AGM. Heaps of power in the 90s. Traditional AGM is flat at 12v, we (Betta LC) are at 50%?

Jason Marshall
Sales Manager - Australasia
Betta Batteries

+61 (0) 466 406 200
Jason@bettabatteries.com


APLA member, ML GPX 4000, ML SD2100, ML Xterra 705 Dual Pack, ML GM1000, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

1 user likes this post: ctxkid

#9

ctxkid
Member
From: Up Ship Creek
Joined: 12 April 2018
Posts: 1,451
Member
05 October 2018 06:46 pm

all theory says that you will screw any battery at 12 volts , i don't understand how a battery can be 50% at 12v ??


........................................Such is life...............................................
Oldest Copper coin 1799 left seated half penny, Oldest Silver 1834 Shilling

#10

Ded Driver
Member
From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 423
Member
05 October 2018 09:52 pm

yeah when any business quotes others they always use a worst case scenario.
Its like the 18yrs life quoted fro the L/Crystal battery. That's only at BEST possible scenario... temp, cycling, charging etc.
But,... from research ive done, LC batteries do hold out longer than traditional AGM
so where an AGM shouldn't be discharged below 50% (for best life span), an LC can happily go 80%


APLA member, ML GPX 4000, ML SD2100, ML Xterra 705 Dual Pack, ML GM1000, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#11

xcvator
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From: A Wide Brown Land
Joined: 12 September 2016
Posts: 1,183
Member
05 October 2018 10:17 pm

I'm a bit sceptical of the claim that you can pull them down to 0 with out damage, you don't even do that with lifpo's.

Me, I'm a born sceptic, so I stick with tried and tested stuff, have a look at "Fullriver" batteries, not the cheapest, but a standard charger works, can charge in your car, and they take a LOT of knocking around. Ive had them in an off road camper ( OLT, Bloomfield, Savanah Way ) and now have 1 as my auxiluary battery in the wagon for the fridge/freezer and never missed a beat
cheers Keith


Spending the kids inheritance as fast as I can
Trying to use an XP DEUS

#12

Campfish4x4
Member
Joined: 04 January 2016
Posts: 98
Member
05 October 2018 10:31 pm

Be careful with dc to dc 45 amp as most agm batts have a max of 30 amp charge input bigger is not always better unless your running multiple batterys

#13

condor22
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From: Adelaide, SA
Joined: 16 December 2013
Posts: 1,407
Member
06 October 2018 12:09 am

Lead Crystal batteries can be fully discharged unlike an AGM, however there is a cost;

The advertised cycle life is;

6000 cycles @ 20% depth = 16+ years
3800 cycles @ 50% = 10+ years
1400 cycles @ 80% = <4 years if cycled at these rates every day.

So as you can see, the more you use of capacity the lower the number of cycles, however I've not found how long they last if dead flat.

Conversely an AGM

3000 @ 20% = 8.2 yrs (I got 10years out of my last replacement)
1300 @ 50% = 3.6 yrs
800 @ 80% = 2.2 yrs

So the mean difference is that you will get a similar life from a lead crystal @ 50% discharge as an AGM @ 20%. This means a smaller battery bank for a similar output and life approx. half. Or twice the capacity for the same size and life. Lead Crystal is cheaper per AH over life expectancy than either AGM or Lithium and you can use the same charger as an AGM although if you use a deeper cycle it will take longer to charge.

AGM = $$$, LC = +20-25% $$$ and Li = "A bank loan" smile

1 user likes this post: Ded Driver

#14

Goldchaser1
Gone Walkabout
From: Kalgoorlie, WA
Joined: 28 February 2017
Posts: 555
Gone Walkabout
06 October 2018 12:52 am

The lithiums arent that expensive,i bought 4 of these for $640.... cool
https://www.evworks.com.au/calb-ca100

Last edited by Goldchaser1 (06 October 2018 01:16 am)

1 user likes this post: Ded Driver

#15

Ded Driver
Member
From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 423
Member
06 October 2018 01:34 am

Goldchaser1 wrote:

The lithiums arent that expensive,i bought 4 of these for $640.... cool

that's pretty good Goldchaser. I havent seen Lithium at this price anywhere
well worth looking at thumbsup

Last edited by Ded Driver (06 October 2018 01:46 am)


APLA member, ML GPX 4000, ML SD2100, ML Xterra 705 Dual Pack, ML GM1000, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#16

Ded Driver
Member
From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 423
Member
06 October 2018 01:44 am

Campfish4x4 wrote:

Be careful with dc to dc 45 amp as most agm batts have a max of 30 amp charge input bigger is not always better unless your running multiple batterys

one of the notable differences ive found between LC & AGM is that AGM has a MAXIMUM charge current, whereas an LC requires periodic charge with a MINIMUM charge current (20-30% depending on type)
From reading on some 4wd & caravan/camping forums it seems a fair average is around 8yrs on AGM & beyond 10yrs on LC. Im not sure exactly when LC came to OZ, but I haven't yet found reference to anyone using them beyond around 10yrs ago.
This lifespan also varies a fair bit from the obvious fact that there are so many variables affecting any battery's life.


APLA member, ML GPX 4000, ML SD2100, ML Xterra 705 Dual Pack, ML GM1000, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#17

Ded Driver
Member
From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 423
Member
06 October 2018 02:03 am

condor22 wrote:

Lead Crystal batteries can be fully discharged unlike an AGM, however there is a cost;
The advertised cycle life is;
6000 cycles @ 20% depth = 16+ years
3800 cycles @ 50% = 10+ years
1400 cycles @ 80% = <4 years if cycled at these rates every day.
So as you can see, the more you use of capacity the lower the number of cycles, however I've not found how long they last if dead flat.

Conversely an AGM
3000 @ 20% = 8.2 yrs (I got 10years out of my last replacement)
1300 @ 50% = 3.6 yrs
800 @ 80% = 2.2 yrs

So the mean difference is that you will get a similar life from a lead crystal @ 50% discharge as an AGM @ 20%. This means a smaller battery bank for a similar output and life approx. half. Or twice the capacity for the same size and life. Lead Crystal is cheaper per AH over life expectancy than either AGM or Lithium and you can use the same charger as an AGM although if you use a deeper cycle it will take longer to charge.

AGM = $$$, LC = +20-25% $$$ and Li = "A bank loan" smile

whilst AGM can be discharged quiet heavily, from what ive learnt is that they shouldn't be discharged beyond 50% to get the best life.
LC on the other hand are happy to be discharged to 80% (or more) on occasions.
Of the people I know running dual battery setups (AGM & Calcium), none ever or rarely discharge them below about that half charge mark.
It seems an LC in this scenario could easily have a life beyond 10 yrs.
It will also be interesting to compare how LC & Lithium last in similar environments & usage in 10-12yrs time. After having a lithium phone battery swell to a dangerous level I am very wary of lithium batteries

Has anyone had any experience with a Lithium Deep Cycle over several years yet to comment?

Last edited by Ded Driver (06 October 2018 02:04 am)


APLA member, ML GPX 4000, ML SD2100, ML Xterra 705 Dual Pack, ML GM1000, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#18

Goldchaser1
Gone Walkabout
From: Kalgoorlie, WA
Joined: 28 February 2017
Posts: 555
Gone Walkabout
06 October 2018 05:45 am

Theres quite a few caravaners running lithiums now dd,weight savings is the main benefit and recharge time and hefty discharge rate,i bought them above to go in my ute but i was gonna mount them in a small made box under the tray in front of the wheel wells,changed my mind because of summer heat and ventilation,there still not set up yet as i ended up mounting them in a big toolbox on the tray,toolbox is rattling to bits on the dirt roads so ive pulled it off for some major reinforcment at the moment and i need to fit a roof rack for a panel to charge them yet.
Think theyd be better in a van or camper instead of the back of a ute,straps linking them together unless well protected can be shorted easier then a normal battery,not sure if id buy them again as a car aux battery,camper or van i reckon yep theyll be very good,i’ll just be running a solar charger set to 14.2-4 i think it is max voltage,cant overcharge them,lithiums ok,there all around us in every electronic device we all use....
Those at 100ah compared to say a normal agm ya not far off 200ah of usable storage at under 15kg,the weights savings are crazy.....

1 user likes this post: Ded Driver

#19

Ded Driver
Member
From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 423
Member
08 October 2018 11:51 pm

A quick & handy on-line Voltage Drop calculator.
Take note of the caution about mm2 figures for automotive wire (mainly the small stuff), as they are sometimes quoted as the diameter or cross-section INCLUDING the insulation.
http://www.voltagedropcalculator.com.au … =Submit%21

and a cable size/capacity chart
https://jaydeeautocables.com.au/pages/cable-size-chart

Last edited by Ded Driver (08 October 2018 11:53 pm)


APLA member, ML GPX 4000, ML SD2100, ML Xterra 705 Dual Pack, ML GM1000, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#20

Ded Driver
Member
From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 423
Member
13 October 2018 12:54 pm

found another good chart relating cable size/length/current/voltage drop
https://www.enerdrive.com.au/wp-content … le-web.pdf


APLA member, ML GPX 4000, ML SD2100, ML Xterra 705 Dual Pack, ML GM1000, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

#21

ctxkid
Member
From: Up Ship Creek
Joined: 12 April 2018
Posts: 1,451
Member
13 October 2018 01:38 pm

good reading, hope not yet posted

https://www.springers.com.au/what-you-n … batteries/


........................................Such is life...............................................
Oldest Copper coin 1799 left seated half penny, Oldest Silver 1834 Shilling

1 user likes this post: Ded Driver

#22

Ded Driver
Member
From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 423
Member
13 October 2018 02:42 pm

that is good info CTX
the weight advantage for lithium is 1 of its best attributes
Power-to-weight ratio
•Lead acid 42 Wh/Kg
•Lithium 86 Wh/Kg

with the increasing use of Li batteries in home solar & electric vehicles, & a huge increase in lithium production, the next 5yrs or so should see a good drop in price.


APLA member, ML GPX 4000, ML SD2100, ML Xterra 705 Dual Pack, ML GM1000, sP01 Enhancer, Garmin GPSMAP 64S, kti PLB, a map, all sorts of coils & a cupla buckets full of hope & enthusiasm

1 user likes this post: ctxkid

#23

Flatlander
Member
Joined: 15 February 2017
Posts: 152
Member
13 October 2018 09:02 pm

I use optima batteries for the last 20 yrs i got onto them though a pilot in turbine thrushes (type of plane with turbine engines ,they put up with heat,vibration, and some deep cycling there's red top ,yellow top,blue and have certain uses,and use ctec chargers but no more than 10 amp compacity i pretty well live in hotest part of aus and ruffest roads and there reliable have a look at them


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