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#1

clegy
Member
From: Yeppoon
Joined: 29 July 2015
Posts: 339
Member
12 July 2018 09:35 am

Hi Folks,
Thought Id ask this question as I have no clue as to the WHY these systems are considered better?

With the X35 Launching I am getting pounded with the question is it Multi frequency? When I ask "Why do you want multi frequency?" No-one can really tell me.

In My brain I think its a marketing thing, but I could be wrong. Its about differentiation from the competition and having something others don't but does it truly make any difference to your actual detecting?

YES its quieter on the beach but I don't think having more than one frequency is the reason, it is more that the software that filters the background noise is pretty heavy handed and good at cutting a lot of false signals off at the control box. I mean how do you even Know what frequency you are using on a machine that chooses them for you?

I have Used CTX, Excal II and Equinox and the only place I do better than my Single frequency VLF is on the wetsand, everywhere else my VLF gives me better and more accurate information about whats under the coil and my simple PI sees every target the other three see on wetsand but without discrimination.

So does anyone know the WHY Its considered better to detect with Multi IQ (Which is 2 frequencies I believe) BBS or FBS? Maybe someone with a technical background can explain the theory behind it as I cant find anything other than marketing spin around.

Cheers Folks

Clegy


https://detectorist.com.au 3 Years On still and still growing. XP Deus, Tyger Stainless Digging tools, C-Scope Detectors.
IN Stock Now XP Mi-4 and Mi-6, Land or Sea Pin Pointers and Catch all finds bags from Grey Ghost!

1 user likes this post: Ship of fools

#2

Heatho
Moderator
From: Sydney, NSW
Joined: 29 April 2013
Posts: 12,686
Moderator
12 July 2018 10:26 am

Hey Clegy, I think that the opposite question needs to be asked, why would a detector need switchable frequencies, when you answer that I think you'll answer the question of why Multi IQ is so good. You're basically going over the ground in one stroke with all frequencies running simultaneously instead of needing to go ever it with specific frequencies targeting certain sized or targets with a certain conductivity.

FBS from my understanding is not true multi frequency, it creates a fundamental frequency and relies on harmonics of that frquency to create the others (28) going up the spectrum from 1.5khz to 100khz.

Multi IQ is true multi frequency as it generates all the frequencies that the detector makes simultaneously. I'm sure there is a lot of processing going on to eliminate spurious ground noises from minerals and wet sand but it does this extremely well and is very fast. Alternately you can run in any individual frequency as well, just like the Deus.

So to me having a Deus would mean that I should be picking say 1 of the four original frequencies for each sweep of an area, thus needing four sweeps to cover the ground properly with each freq. Not saying the Deus isn't a great detector, as it is and peoples finds prove that. Though the Nox is an excellent detector as well as peoples finds are proving, especially in trash cluttered areas.

On the beaches though my opinion is that the CTX is still king, followed closely by the Nox.

Hopefully other with a more technical background will add some thoughts as well.

Copy from minelab technologies page.

https://www.minelab.com/knowledge-base/ … ies#259022

1531353263_screenshot_2018-07-12_metal_detectors_-_minelab_metal_detectors_-_for_metal_detecting_gold_prospecting_treasure_hunting_....jpg


Minelab GPX 5000, SDC2300, CTX3030, Equinox 800, patience, lot's of patience.

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#3

Heatho
Moderator
From: Sydney, NSW
Joined: 29 April 2013
Posts: 12,686
Moderator
12 July 2018 10:35 am

In my opinion though the new x35 coils will give way too many frequency options and will no doubt confuse some people. I really don't see the point as the Deus does so well with the options already available. Maybe it's a marketing gimmick to compete with Minelab? Anyway I'll be interested to see how they go when people start reporting on them.

Also I'm sure XP could possibly one day make a software update that handles salt and water logged sand better.

Also I really don't see the the point of using PI's on the beaches, there is way to many fine pieces of trash to keep you busy while you may never get to the good stuff, good discrimination is essential, Minelab treasure detectors offer this very well.

I've used my GPX 5000 on beaches successfully but it is very time consuming and frustrating. I get much better rsults with my CTX and nearly as good depth with the 17 inch coil.


Minelab GPX 5000, SDC2300, CTX3030, Equinox 800, patience, lot's of patience.

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#4

The Scrounger
Banned
Joined: 09 April 2018
Posts: 573
Banned
12 July 2018 12:16 pm

So it's a bessa brick with a 17" coil,even better = party


Don't Expect People to welcome you when your light Shines Brighter Than Theirs - My Happiness reminds people Of Their Misery.

#5

Fnx50
Member
From: SEQ, QLD
Joined: 03 April 2015
Posts: 69
Member
12 July 2018 06:12 pm

The question about Multi IQ? I don't think it has so much to do with frequency as it does with the process the Equinox uses to interpret what the coil is 'seeing'. Multi frequency, logically, is better than single frequency. If single frequency was better, then manufacturers would choose the best one and sell just that. XP Deus has different coils at different frequencies, I understand, to suit what one is looking for. E.G. Gold, coins or relics. Higher frequencies for gold and lower for the coins and relics. Multi-frequency puts all your eggs into one basket. Which is better, is subjective. Any detector is better than none and the detector is only as good as the operator's understanding of how it works. Minelab are close-lipped, naturally, about their technologies, but their manual is available online and can be perused by anyone who may wish to learn more about how the Equinox works.

Last edited by Fnx50 (12 July 2018 06:20 pm)


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Equinox 600 & 800.

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#6

OldGT
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Joined: 10 May 2017
Posts: 502
Member
12 July 2018 08:56 pm

There's no short answer, and smarter minds than mine could do better but I'll give it a go.

Detection is based on two basic principles. Conductivity, and for want of a better word mineralization.

When any signal is transmitted into the ground it passes through the ground conditions, hitting the target, and the reflected signal is then interpreted by the machine.

So the two parts that every signal emmited by a machine must be capable of is transferring a a signal to the target through the ground conditions barrier (mineralization) and post transmit in receival, interpret the conductivity of the target.

Variations occur between ground conditions and conductivity of the target. With ground conditions it is the differences between what is absorbed and reflected, and conductivity with size and orientation.

To achieve a greater balance different frequencies can be transmitted similtanously to elicit a more accurate reflected signal.

High frequency can narrow the band of signal to elicit a more "accurate" determination of smaller gold, specimens, shallow targets, and low conductors.

Lower frequency can elicit a more accurate determination of a deeper and higher conductivity target.

Both low and higher frequency have different behavior determined by ground conditions.

So essentially what the aim of a detector with a greater range of frequency is designed for is to gather as many solid and undiminished signals from the transmit to provide a more accurate determination of the in ground target in greater variations of ground conditions and mineralization.

Any more than that and it will hurt my brain to try and explain. But correctly as observed a well built single frequency machine in the right soil types and target profile can be more accurate. Most coin/treasure machines are calibrated to coin size targets. Multi frequency machines however can be better for thin gold jewelery, gold pieces, deep silvers, and masked targets.

If I've said anything incorrect please quote me and point out my mistake/s.
Cheers.

3 users like this post: Dave79, Detectist, ktmman

#7

Fnx50
Member
From: SEQ, QLD
Joined: 03 April 2015
Posts: 69
Member
12 July 2018 09:38 pm

OldGT. Thanks for a well written reply. What I gain from it is that a machine that can operate in multi-frequency or single frequency with the benefit of not having to switch coils to change frequencies has the advantage over both single frequency and BBS/FBS detectors. Or, am I over-simplifying?


NAPFA Member.
Equinox 600 & 800.

#8

OldGT
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Joined: 10 May 2017
Posts: 502
Member
12 July 2018 10:48 pm

It's hard to group all detectors together. The all work with the same or similar principles at the core, transmit and receive, it's detection 101, but each will do it differently.

The variations and variables are best explained by how each individual make and model of detector was made to do its specific job, or more accurately interpretation of its signature signal/s, both in transmission and receival.

That is the basis on which a detector is designed for a set purpose. Most "detection" issues and related success or failure of a machines capabilities is arranged on this principle. It's the rudimentary difference between say pi (even mono vs dd if we go further) & vlf. One step further is high and low frequency. Next is Multis/fbs/etc.
It's extremely interesting to analyze what the maker has to say about a specific detection technology they have employed. This will allow the user to identify which type/make/model to select for specific requirements, and one step further the type of coil to use. It's less holden vs ford and more 4x4 vs passage car vs luxury car, vs truck. Each has their place on the road with different limitations and purpose

I fear we are down the rabbit hole however.
thumbsup

Last edited by OldGT (12 July 2018 11:00 pm)

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#9

xcvator
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From: A Wide Brown Land
Joined: 12 September 2016
Posts: 1,140
Member
12 July 2018 11:00 pm

So which is easiest to use, the "Nox" or the "Deus" ?

Vast array of settings and customization = Deus

Limited customization and settings = "Nox"

Who has used both "extensively" , what are your thoughts ? Love to see an unbiased comparison roll


Spending the kids inheritance as fast as I can
Trying to use an XP DEUS

#10

Fnx50
Member
From: SEQ, QLD
Joined: 03 April 2015
Posts: 69
Member
12 July 2018 11:25 pm

xcvator wrote:

So which is easiest to use, the "Nox" or the "Deus" ?

Vast array of settings and customization = Deus

Limited customization and settings = "Nox"

Who has used both "extensively" , what are your thoughts ? Love to see an unbiased comparison roll

I have never used a Deus, so I cannot make any comment on their abilities. However, I do believe they are a very good detector but more expensive than I can afford. From your statement xcvator, I assume you have used both because you have directly compared the two. I use an Equinox 800 and I am quite happy with the "limited" customisation and settings. My Equinox 800 has 8 modes, 7 basic, adjustable settings and 5 advanced, adjustable settings. Along with 5 single frequencies and multi-frequency. Thank god it's limited or else it would be totally beyond my comprehension. smile


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Equinox 600 & 800.

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#11

Heatho
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From: Sydney, NSW
Joined: 29 April 2013
Posts: 12,686
Moderator
13 July 2018 08:49 am

The Equinox manual actually states that in some detecting situations a single frequency might be better.

Copy from the Nox manual:

Single Frequency Operation
Using a single frequency may have a slight advantage over multifrequency
in certain detecting situations.
For example; if you were searching only for larger high conductive
targets located at great depth, using 5 kHz may give an advantage.
Similarly, if you were hunting only for very fine gold jewellery at a
shallow depth, then 20 kHz* or 40 kHz* may give better results in
some detecting environments, such as at a beach on the dry sand.
In some noisy environments (e.g. high Electromagnetic
Interference, where Noise Cancel is not fully effective), a single
frequency may pick up less noise than Multi will, however
maximum target sensitivity over a wide range of targets will be
reduced.

I haven't found this situation yet, some targets I've found at the limit of detection I have actually switched to 5khz and 10khz before digging it up and the targets disappeared, then switch back to multi and the target was there again, these were very borderline faint signals. In my experience with the Nox multi detects deeper with it in the different soils around my area.


Minelab GPX 5000, SDC2300, CTX3030, Equinox 800, patience, lot's of patience.

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#12

clegy
Member
From: Yeppoon
Joined: 29 July 2015
Posts: 339
Member
13 July 2018 08:49 am

Appreciate the responses all.

This was never a Deus V's equinox post I wanted to compare Technologies and also see if people truly understand what they have bought.

I kinda Lied as I have a good handle on how all the Multi frequency, IQ, FBS, BBS works (Know thy Enemy LOL) I really just wanted to see if those using them knew what they owned and if people bought them from a superior technology or a superior marketing standpoint.

Thanks again.

Cheers Guys and thank you for your answers.

Happy Hunting

Clegy


https://detectorist.com.au 3 Years On still and still growing. XP Deus, Tyger Stainless Digging tools, C-Scope Detectors.
IN Stock Now XP Mi-4 and Mi-6, Land or Sea Pin Pointers and Catch all finds bags from Grey Ghost!

#13

hAyyoUinAU
Member
From: Brisbane, QLD
Joined: 30 July 2017
Posts: 1,214
Member
13 July 2018 08:59 am

No one really knows exactly how MULTI-IQ works and how it is weighted. Only Minelab knows.
What I do know is it works, and works well.

Marketing is marketing, it doesn't translate to real world use. The NOX has proven itself a winner already.

Good luck

Rick


GPZ 7000 + Equinox 800

#14

hAyyoUinAU
Member
From: Brisbane, QLD
Joined: 30 July 2017
Posts: 1,214
Member
13 July 2018 09:02 am

PS.
For those that are unaware.

Multi-IQ is not all 5 frequencies running together. Eg, it is not 5, 10,15, 20 and 40 all at the same time.
It is its own frequency in a sense.


GPZ 7000 + Equinox 800

1 user likes this post: clegy

#15

Heatho
Moderator
From: Sydney, NSW
Joined: 29 April 2013
Posts: 12,686
Moderator
13 July 2018 09:04 am

clegy wrote:

Appreciate the responses all.

This was never a Deus V's equinox post I wanted to compare Technologies and also see if people truly understand what they have bought.

I kinda Lied as I have a good handle on how all the Multi frequency, IQ, FBS, BBS works (Know thy Enemy LOL) I really just wanted to see if those using them knew what they owned and if people bought them from a superior technology or a superior marketing standpoint.

Thanks again.

Cheers Guys and thank you for your answers.

Happy Hunting

Clegy

If XP wants to compete with the Equinox release maybe someone should BASE jump off the Eiffel tower with the X35 coil. big_smile

Either way both the Deus and Nox are great detectors, no matter who has the best marketing department.


Minelab GPX 5000, SDC2300, CTX3030, Equinox 800, patience, lot's of patience.

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#16

ctxkid
Member
From: Up Ship Creek
Joined: 12 April 2018
Posts: 1,033
Member
13 July 2018 09:06 am

i turn my CTX on, factory coin pattern, ground balance, noise cancel and detect cool
(may change the odd coil, depending on condition)
and have satisfactory results wink

Last edited by ctxkid (13 July 2018 09:06 am)


.......................Such is life, Bucket list coin 1964 Rams Head.........................
Oldest Copper coin 1799 left seated half penny, Oldest Silver 1834 Shilling

#17

Heatho
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From: Sydney, NSW
Joined: 29 April 2013
Posts: 12,686
Moderator
13 July 2018 09:16 am

hAyyoUinAU wrote:

PS.
For those that are unaware.

Multi-IQ is not all 5 frequencies running together. Eg, it is not 5, 10,15, 20 and 40 all at the same time.
It is its own frequency in a sense.

Minelab describe it differently. Multi-frequency being the key word.

Also copied from the Minelab site in the treasure talk section.

https://www.minelab.com/anz/go-minelabb … ies-part-1

How does Multi-IQ compare to BBS/FBS?
Multi-IQ uses a different group of fundamental frequencies than BBS/FBS to generate a wide-band multi-frequency transmission signal that is more sensitive to high frequency targets and slightly less sensitive to low frequency targets. Multi-IQ uses the latest high-speed processors and advanced digital filtering techniques for a much faster recovery speed than BBS/FBS technologies. Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions almost as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions.


Minelab GPX 5000, SDC2300, CTX3030, Equinox 800, patience, lot's of patience.

1 user likes this post: hAyyoUinAU

#18

Smoky bandit
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Joined: 05 April 2016
Posts: 3,038
Member
13 July 2018 09:30 am

ctxkid wrote:

i turn my CTX on, factory coin pattern, ground balance, noise cancel and detect cool
(may change the odd coil, depending on condition)
and have satisfactory results wink

Do you have to ground balance.. lol lol lol lol thumbsup devil


No pain No gain..

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#19

Dave79
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Joined: 30 May 2018
Posts: 415
Member
13 July 2018 09:37 am

I bought the equinox mostly because of price and Internet testimonials on it's performance. I didn't even know the basics of how a detector worked at the time but this one was really good for a beginner and I'm still finding plenty of settings to play with and learn about. The profile reset function is pretty good too as you can get straight back to the factory profile if you fiddle with something and it doesn't work. roll


Prospecting must be like fishing, the big one keeps getting away!

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#20

hAyyoUinAU
Member
From: Brisbane, QLD
Joined: 30 July 2017
Posts: 1,214
Member
13 July 2018 09:43 am

Taken from Part 2

https://www.minelab.com/anz/go-minelabb … ies-part-2

“For each frequency the detector transmits and receives there are two signals which can be extracted which we refer to as I and Q. The Q signal is most sensitive to targets, while the I signal is most sensitive to iron content. Traditional single-frequency metal detectors use the Q signal to detect targets, and then use the ratio of the I and Q signals to assess the characteristics of the target and assign a target ID. The problem with this approach is that the I signal is sensitive to the iron content of the soil. The target ID is always perturbed by the response from the soil, and as the signal from the target gets weaker, this perturbation becomes substantial. With some simplification here for brevity, if a detector transmits and receives on more than one frequency, it can ignore the soil sensitive I signals, and instead look at the multiple Q signals it receives in order to determine a target ID. That way, even for weak targets or highly mineralised soils, the target ID is far less perturbed by the response from the soil. This leads to very precise target IDs, both in mineralised soils and for targets at depth.”


GPZ 7000 + Equinox 800

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#21

hAyyoUinAU
Member
From: Brisbane, QLD
Joined: 30 July 2017
Posts: 1,214
Member
13 July 2018 09:46 am

And I think this point they make is very interesting.

“How many simultaneous frequencies?” you may ask, wondering if this is a critical parameter. Minelab has been carrying out detailed investigations into this in recent years. Just as you can colour in a map with many colours, the minimum number to differentiate between adjacent countries is only 4 – a tough problem for mathematicians to prove, over many years. Similar to the map problem, it’s perhaps not the maximum number of frequencies needed to achieve an optimum result, but the minimum number that is more interesting. When it comes to frequencies in a detector, to cover all target types, how the frequencies are combined AND processed is now more important, with the latest detectors, than how many frequencies, for achieving even better results.


GPZ 7000 + Equinox 800

#22

clegy
Member
From: Yeppoon
Joined: 29 July 2015
Posts: 339
Member
13 July 2018 09:51 am

hAyyoUinAU wrote:

PS.
For those that are unaware.

Multi-IQ is not all 5 frequencies running together. Eg, it is not 5, 10,15, 20 and 40 all at the same time.
It is its own frequency in a sense.

Thanks Man,.]:D

The I.Q part is the key to how the equinox works.....

Again this is not a pissing Comp I don't care that you swing an equinox or a CTX or any other machine.
As long as your getting your Jolly's and finding cool stuff does it really matter?

The Key to any detector is knowing how it works and how to take advantage of the features your particular machine has.

If you don't know how those features work how is one supposed to know its running at optimum Levels?

In all honesty I never know, I know what worked here yesterday but sometimes the most subtle change on your machine will have massive consequences on your results, both good and bad.

Also that same change 500 meters down the road may have completely different results.

Love the Passion in the posts BTW!

My Point is, Love your machine and get to know it intimately (Not in a weird way though). Knowledge is key and I hope this inspires people to look a bit deeper at what they are using and why they are using it. The devil is in the details devil

Clegy

P.S just a pot stir, I really like how the CTX has been dragged down to the level of $1,000 detector (Equinox 800 $1039 at Anaconda) yet it still retails for $2495 last time I looked.
It still amazes me that CTX owners haven't stormed the minelab headquarters and held a few software geeks hostage while they prepare an update for your updateable machines. The guy that does the marketing at Minelab is a freakin Genius!!!!!


https://detectorist.com.au 3 Years On still and still growing. XP Deus, Tyger Stainless Digging tools, C-Scope Detectors.
IN Stock Now XP Mi-4 and Mi-6, Land or Sea Pin Pointers and Catch all finds bags from Grey Ghost!

#23

ChrisD
Member
Joined: 15 October 2016
Posts: 33
Member
13 July 2018 10:27 am

I think 'pricepoint' is the key here. Minelab worked out that the $2,500 market is a limited one, but the average Joe Bloe is more comfortable forking out $1,000. I wonder if XP is working on a similarly priced new product (not just a watered down Deus)?

#24

Fnx50
Member
From: SEQ, QLD
Joined: 03 April 2015
Posts: 69
Member
13 July 2018 10:38 am

I think that, technology aside, the other big selling point of the Equinox is how light it is. When I put it down and pick up my E-Trac, I feel like I ‘m weight training. My shoulder loves the Equinox. Now, if only Minelab would release the extra coils. ?


NAPFA Member.
Equinox 600 & 800.

#25

clegy
Member
From: Yeppoon
Joined: 29 July 2015
Posts: 339
Member
13 July 2018 10:41 am

Deus Lite in Version 5 is that machine. Due Very soon, I order my stock today.

The WS4/5 Unit picks up a load of features from the remote and will be a very capable detector at that price point.
More that $1300 range though.

Now Just using headphones you can adjust:

Frequency Shift for the 35 available. (NEW)
Reactivity, you can now access all 7 speeds (NEW)
Audio response, make the little deep stuff sound out more (NEW)
Iron Volume, Turn it up or down to suit your needs. (NEW)
TX Power, TX is raw grunt and has 4 settings 1-3 and boost (NEW) Separate from sensitivity that's a different thing altogether.
Automatic ground Tracking, Auto ground balance for variable soil. (NEW)

Still has:
Frequency change for main frequencies 4, 8 , 12, 18 and 25 (
Ground Balance
10 presets programs
Descrimination
Sensitivity
Number of tones from 2,3,4,5 FULL
Audio Volume
Accepts upto 5 Coils
Accurate TID Numbers you can rely on.

The WS4 can also be stem mounted so you can use the TID system.

Existing Deus owners have all these features added to their current WS4/5 for FREE.

Lite has always been popular in The UK, but their hunting style is so different from ours the lite didn't really suit Aussies.... Until now.

Clegy

Last edited by clegy (13 July 2018 10:45 am)


https://detectorist.com.au 3 Years On still and still growing. XP Deus, Tyger Stainless Digging tools, C-Scope Detectors.
IN Stock Now XP Mi-4 and Mi-6, Land or Sea Pin Pointers and Catch all finds bags from Grey Ghost!

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