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#1

Mike Marsupial
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Joined: 26 January 2018
Posts: 261
Member
12 February 2018 10:50 pm

No Camping
No Shooting
No Trespassing
Private Property
Keep Out

The no camping and the no shooting I can easily understand, but what's the story with the others? If they appear on a map and connect two places beyond the boundary of the signposted area does one not have a legal right of thoroughfare?

lolol I don't want to get shot at or attacked by strange life-forms.

#2

Maldon Gold Centre
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From: Maldon, VIC
Joined: 02 October 2017
Posts: 221
Member
12 February 2018 10:52 pm

Mike Marsupial wrote:

No Camping
No Shooting
No Trespassing
Private Property
Keep Out

The no camping and the no shooting I can easily understand, but what's the story with the others? If they appear on a map and connect two places beyond the boundary of the signposted area does one not have a legal right of thoroughfare?

lolol I don't want to get shot at or attacked by strange life-forms.

Depends on the state and the circumstances.

Can you go around?


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#3

Mike Marsupial
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Joined: 26 January 2018
Posts: 261
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12 February 2018 10:55 pm

Maldon Gold Centre wrote:

Can you go around?

Yeah, but it would take well over one hundred kilometers.

Last edited by Mike Marsupial (12 February 2018 10:57 pm)

#4

7.62marksman
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From: Nowra, NSW
Joined: 26 July 2016
Posts: 4,825
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12 February 2018 10:57 pm

The way i understand it is
If the road runs through one property to another and you have permission to enter the other property then you can use that road as long as you shut all gates and don't stop on the way through
I have run up against that before and one property owner always talks to the other so they will normally know you will be passing through

That is just the way i understand it


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#5

Maldon Gold Centre
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From: Maldon, VIC
Joined: 02 October 2017
Posts: 221
Member
12 February 2018 11:05 pm

Mike Marsupial wrote:
Maldon Gold Centre wrote:

Can you go around?

Yeah, but it would take well over one hundred kilometers.

I guess the most important question is, in which state?


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#6

Mike Marsupial
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Joined: 26 January 2018
Posts: 261
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12 February 2018 11:06 pm

Thanks, 7.62,

I seem to remember a legal right to use a road traversing private property if it connects two other places (probably other roads).
I guess this forum is not the best pace to ask. I might have a look on a four wheel drive site or a legal site.
From memory it is a pretty old legal right, and may well have multiple conditions by now.
The reason I ask is that there are often places I want to get to, but gates and signs get in the way, and I don't want to piss anyone off. I usually just turn around (sometimes swearing).

Last edited by Mike Marsupial (12 February 2018 11:07 pm)

#7

OzzieAu
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From: Adelaide
Joined: 04 November 2014
Posts: 558
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12 February 2018 11:07 pm

They’re called PAR’s here in SA and the NT..... Public Access Routes


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#8

Mike Marsupial
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Joined: 26 January 2018
Posts: 261
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12 February 2018 11:08 pm

Maldon Gold Centre wrote:

I guess the most important question is, in which state?

NSW, but aren't all states the same in this regard?

#9

Mike Marsupial
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Joined: 26 January 2018
Posts: 261
Member
12 February 2018 11:10 pm

OzzieAu wrote:

They’re called PAR’s here in SA and the NT..... Public Access Routes

Thanks, mate. Perhaps that terminology is useful to research this.

It's late here, but I'll post my findings when I get 'em. :-)

Last edited by Mike Marsupial (12 February 2018 11:14 pm)

#10

OzzieAu
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From: Adelaide
Joined: 04 November 2014
Posts: 558
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12 February 2018 11:13 pm

Here ya go https://www.4wdsa.asn.au/?page=pars

Last edited by OzzieAu (12 February 2018 11:15 pm)


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#11

Mike Marsupial
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Joined: 26 January 2018
Posts: 261
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12 February 2018 11:15 pm

Great. Thanks, OzzieAU

#12

Maldon Gold Centre
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From: Maldon, VIC
Joined: 02 October 2017
Posts: 221
Member
12 February 2018 11:20 pm

Mike Marsupial wrote:
Maldon Gold Centre wrote:

I guess the most important question is, in which state?

NSW, but aren't all states the same in this regard?

The laws are different in each state.

Is the road a gazetted road? If not and the road doesn't meet the criteria below then you may be trespassing.

If any of the following criteria apply you can use the road, track or right of way.

- The road is a gazetted road.
- The road is excluded from land, freehold or leased which is a thoroughfare between properties.
- The road is excluded from land, freehold or leased which is a thoroughfare between a property and another public road.

If the above does not apply then the land owner, lessee or land manager has the right to refuse you entry and then you just have to go around.


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#13

Mike Marsupial
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Joined: 26 January 2018
Posts: 261
Member
12 February 2018 11:26 pm

Maldon Gold Centre wrote:

If any of the following criteria apply you can use the road, track or right of way.

- The road is a gazetted road.
- The road is excluded from land, freehold or leased which is a thoroughfare between properties.
- The road is excluded from land, freehold or leased which is a thoroughfare between a property and another public road.

If the above does not apply then the land owner, lessee or land manager has the right to refuse you entry and then you just have to go around.

Cheers! Perhaps 'gazetted' is another key word here.

Will check more over the next few days. Right now I'm dog tired after a very very very hard but very very very good day's gold prospecting. :-)

G'night. :-)

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#14

malri_au
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From: Adelaide & Victoria
Joined: 02 February 2018
Posts: 454
Member
13 February 2018 11:37 am

just worth noting even on a PAR,you may only have the right of road use,not roadside.

accidently found myself on a PAR once,the key thing that meant i was on their land was the cattle grid i crossed.

the farmer turned up with the cops as i was preparing to sleep the drive off,had to explain what i was doing there etc.

all was well after explaining and a bit of map showing and no harm came of it.

it was an honest mistake,but could very well have been far different had i actually got out and about fossicking.


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#15

Mike Marsupial
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Joined: 26 January 2018
Posts: 261
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13 February 2018 12:48 pm

malri_au wrote:

...the farmer turned up with the cops...

lol
That must have been Australia's bravest farmer! Still, he might have had bad trouble before with mushroom hunting hippies or blunderbus-toting pirates burying booty.
The cowcocky I ran into the other day had a soft rifle case across the top of his truck's dash. He looked like the type who wouldn't hesitate to use it either. Damned hard looking fella, but very decent. We exchanged details and I'm hoping he might be helpful if I need info about that area at some point.

Last edited by Mike Marsupial (13 February 2018 12:48 pm)

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#16

mbasko
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From: Central West NSW
Joined: 27 January 2015
Posts: 3,110
Member
13 February 2018 01:38 pm

In NSW they are Crown Roads (Paper Roads). Many have either been sold & closed or are earmarked for closure & sale.
https://www.crownland.nsw.gov.au/crown_lands/roads
Other info:
http://www.dohertysmith.com.au/blog/crown-roads/
http://rg-guidelines.nswlrs.com.au/depo … rown_roads
Basically where they are still Crown Roads yet to be sold then legal access should remain even if the landholder has an Enclosure Permit or Permissive Occupancy has been arranged although access to roads that lead only to private or land not able to be otherwise legally accessed would be questionable anyway i.e. the road would likely need to lead to legally accessible land/areas to be seriously considered accessible to the general public or for gaining access to private property you can rightfully access.
If in doubt you would need to contact the nearest Regional office of Crown Lands. Many mapping applications don't appear to be routinely updated when these Crown Roads are sold/closed.

Last edited by mbasko (13 February 2018 01:40 pm)


Everything we use comes from mining or farming.

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#17

Matt80
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From: Rockhampton, QLD
Joined: 14 July 2014
Posts: 113
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13 February 2018 01:46 pm

While l can understand the frustration of having to make a big detour, l also can understand farmers wanting to shoot people on sight if they are on their property, especially if they have had people not shut gates and have lost cattle or they have had people bring weeds into their property or for a bunch of other reasons. Point is it's their property unless designated as a road access (would be nice if this was easier to find out sometimes) so l can't blame them for not wanting u there.
Personally l like the lock the gate idea; while a bad prospector won't fill in their holes, a good CSG driller will completely f*"K your land. So yeah if your in a possible CSG area don't expect a warm welcome unless they are sure about u.

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#18

mudgee hunter
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Joined: 02 January 2017
Posts: 605
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13 February 2018 05:11 pm

The road between say Hargraves through to Windeyer following the Meroo is a gazetted rd. There are gates to keep live stock in, these could also be cattle stop grids. So anyoneone can travel this route (4x4) but farmer brown might own both sides of the road, fenced or unfenced. But your not to leave the road basically.
And some right of way clauses are for the farmer brown who might own a property at the rear of another. So he personally has a carriage way to his property, and for his guess etc. He can choose too lock the gate at his boundry, or if both agree, lock the gate at the front property sharing a key.
Farmer black at the front property cant deny you access to visit farmer brown at the rear. (Unless locked)
But if there is say 3 plus properties and the road leads onto another gazetted road further down, its hardly ever inforced, unless locked.
But in one road not far from winderyer, a road like such is locked and the neighbors all share a key.

#19

Mike Marsupial
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Joined: 26 January 2018
Posts: 261
Member
13 February 2018 05:43 pm

There's some great information pouring in here! Great! Thanks, everybody.

Let me pose a couple of questions.

1) You're on a wee back-road that appears on many maps, travels a considerable distance, and connects to busier roads at both ends. Said road has numerous cattle grids along the way. You come to a gate, which is not locked, but does have a sign reading Private Property. Would it be reasonable to drive on leaving the gate as you found it?

2) Exactly the same as 1) except the sign says Private Property - No Trespassing. Do you drive on?

I'm thinking that as long as you endeavour to pass promptly through either property you are within your rights.

Any legal opinions?

#20

Mike Marsupial
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Joined: 26 January 2018
Posts: 261
Member
13 February 2018 05:52 pm

After reading the Oxford definition of trespass, I think no. 2) might be out.

#21

mbasko
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From: Central West NSW
Joined: 27 January 2015
Posts: 3,110
Member
13 February 2018 07:12 pm

I think in most circumstances where your on a connecting road you would be ok as long as you remain on the road only & as you say leave any gates as found.
There have been examples of these types of connecting roads having "no tresspassing" + "keep out" signs illegally placed. One example was the Windeyer thru to Bishops View Rd Mudgee Hunter mentions above. The signs have now been removed.
On the other hand there would be examples where landholder's are within their rights to deny access so it's a hard question to answer + a question with a few answers depending on all the circumstances of the specific land. Best best get onto Crown Lands &/or ask the connecting property owner/manager about using the road.


Everything we use comes from mining or farming.

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#22

Mike Marsupial
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Joined: 26 January 2018
Posts: 261
Member
14 February 2018 09:47 pm

Thanks.

I guess the trick is to tread gently and keep sniffing the wind, short of any other indications.
I've been too busy here to chase up many of the great leads to info posted here, but I reckon it's worth doing and I'll get around to it when the weather prevents getting out and getting what we like getting.

Cheers, and may everyone find plenty of whatever they are looking for. :-)

#23

Rexrmx450
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Joined: 20 January 2018
Posts: 10
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15 February 2018 10:16 am

A thoroughfare is just that....no one can stop you....you have the right....if you chose to exercise it

#24

mudgee hunter
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Joined: 02 January 2017
Posts: 605
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18 February 2018 09:57 am

If you do find yourself ACCIDENTALLY in a trespassing situation, some states vary on how it is, correct me if im wrong.
There is a different definition and penalties for "enclosed land" as to say an "open unfenced block of land"
it gets weird...
if you drove over a cattle grid, that is fenced either side of course, one would think its classified as " enclosed land" , but it is technically not. It must have a gate, and the gate MUST be closed,
now if the gate was left open and you drove in, the ruling changes. The owner must ask you to leave immediately. 3 times! Failing this request now makes you "trespassing"
With a closed gate (enclosed land) that is entered the owner just has to ring the police to have you charged without warning.

How landholders handle the situation can vary dramatically. Also depending if you where still on the road or in his paddock. But always apologise and ask for his help of directions.
Even ask him of some public spots that he might know of that he likes. This might help relax the situation.
I have personally found most of the older cockies love a chat.

Tip. Some back tracks you will notice near an intersection, all the mail boxes. This is as far as the postie will go up that road. Usually indicating a dead end. If the road links up to another gazetted road, the mail boxes will usually be at homestead gate entrance.
If in doubt, swing in to a homestead and simply ask for directions.
They may even show you a good spot to prospect on their property!
below is a few tips for ganing access to private property guys

https://www.prospectingaustralia.com.au … p?id=21540

Last edited by mudgee hunter (18 February 2018 10:09 am)

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#25

Wishfull
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From: Yorke Peninsla S.A., SA
Joined: 27 April 2016
Posts: 1,730
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18 February 2018 12:44 pm

Interesting. There are roads around that I know of that
some farmers have put gates on and use them to move stock and generally treat it as their property. So does the above give them the right to treat you as a trespasser if you go through one of these gates ?


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