seperating brass and lead from 10mm grey gravel

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HELP please ?

I would like to find a way to separate lead and brass from 10mm and smaller grey gravel on a shooting range.

The method I was thinking was a trommel of some sort, the gravel is lighter than the lead of course,
but the brass .22 cases are around or just below the weight of the gravel.

Can I have some idea's from the crowd please ?

It is a shooting range and the brass, lead is under foot, NOT in the berms/mounds dirt.
Changes have been made and it is no longer being swept into the gravel, but it would be nice to clean all the rubbish out.
 
Greenhornet, now thats a task and a half, the lead is under foot, is it lead shavings off oversized projectiles, if it is there perhaps a heavy duty sieve will be required and a large propane torch to melt the lead , the brass cases from .22 cal up might be sieveable , they are lighter than gravel perhaps a large blue bowl method using centrifugal force lead projectiles off the mound are large but never come across lead at the firing line you could try a long tom highbanker the lead should behave like gold
 
Sounds like a school holiday job for the kids :)

1504584029_sort.jpg
 
Thanks guys.

The lead under foot is fragments AND large splattered projectiles depending on the target positioning.
Not really a good job for the kids unless gloved. :eek:

The problem is the the large volume of the gravel to go thru, lead being ever so slightly less in mass to gold
and the brass cases being lighter than lead and gravel.
I considered that a method to separate large lead and cases from gravel may be to use a multi stage trommel (?)
to screen and then particles of lead similar to gravel size and smaller separated via riffled tray or screen or mesh (?)

I really have no idea where to start as I have no experience in this area.

Watching vids I think trommels work on mass and size of the material using gravity while turning the drum, and screened size
is determined by mesh, trommel angle drives screening of items with mass.
So I assume that a multi staged trommel could possibly separate the brass and larger mass lead from gravel, a tray with deep riffles
might then be used with a concrete vibrator the separate the heavier smaller lead bits from the lighter gravel.
Can anyone point me to more info on these designs ?

How my theory will work is not here or there, but the way of how to construct a beast and in what order to put things is
what I lack experience with.

Areas are roughly 50mx50m gravel up to 75mm deep.
Hoping to do shift it in patches and put the filtered gravel straight back onto the cleared patch.
Working the heaviest material zones first
Electricity is available

Separating the lead by melting once it is concentrated is easy - everything else wil sit on top.
Brass too when in quantity, but it would be better to not have to melt the brass down.

Come on DIY engineers, help me work this out. ;)
 
Thanks Occasional, I took a look at it and it seems like a great machine, but it is not suited to the sort of volume
that I will have to go thru.

Still on the hunt for ideas, but I did consider utilising a concrete mixer that I have as the basis for the trommel,
just bolt onto the front.
And I using a concrete vibrator for keeping the stone moving over a screen or riffles.
 
LOL

At $35 thats a bargain :party: , when do I pick it up, only problem, there is no water on the site, so willing to look at a tanker for that
supply.

As for vibrators....... the wife always tells me to use my own :eek: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Greenhornet
the melting point of lead is around 330 C and brass around 950 C so we do have a simple solution at hand , take a large plough disc the larger the better so you can spread the contaminated soil on top in thin layer and have a good hot heat source either under or over the top, the lead will melt and run off like a silver stream, but be extremely careful with lead fumes so you my need a fan or extractor to suck the fumes away, the more deadly element is water, it will explode on contact with molten lead , water expands 17000 times it volume, good for steam engines , but not near molten lead, the gravel will need to be buried as it will be contaminated with lead slag ok the brass cases they melt at around 950 C once the lead is removed then perhaps a shaker could b used like the case cleaners marvellous how the cases circulated in the medium perhaps using a large screen table to allow the gravel to fall thru brass cases can also be picked out manually on a screen table
at all times you should have appropriate protection leather apron and gloves and a full face shield, just in case, no kids around
my thoughts are open for improvement it all depends on the budget, hot coals in a fire with an old shovel cheap as but slow and effective , then there is the drum lined with fire bricks and lid heat supplied by log burner a mini blast furnace use to melt lead brass and all those aluminium drink cans that would be my choice , hope this helps
 
iamagoldenoldie2, thank you for the info.

With the area to cover and gravel volume, this method of lead removal will be pretty expensive, also the gravel needs to go back into use.
The cost of fuel would be awesome, but once everything was condensed, I was heading down the road of a waste oil burner to use for melting
the brass and lead to make ingots of pure metals for later casting.

The concept of sorting cases via a vibratory tumbled system is very interesting, a screening table would be easy to setup to drop the smaller gravel
then part of the remaining task could be a manual pick up and maybe a shaker table just made out of plywood sheet with timber strips glued to it for the grooves
NO WATER available but dry use anyway.

I considered using a vibrating channel system with metal detection to fire and air blast to blow the cases out of the channel into a capture as the gravel passed by,
it would still collect some gravel but a quick sort, but it could be much more simple than that I'm sure.

The lead could be concentrated with a shaker too I would assume.

This is not so much as to remove all the lead contamination but more for larger pieces to be removed and the brass to be removed
as there is a build up.
I will personally use both the lead and brass, lead for projectiles and brass for casting.
As I can gain access to the range during the week when there is no shooting, 2-3 days per range is my likely window, but no reason I cant do half of one and return
the following week to do the other half if the process is slower.

It seems shaker tables work depending on angle, groove depth, speed and frequency of vibration, media flow, and water flow.

Can any one explain these or point me to where I can do more reasearch?

Very interesting idea.
Here is an interesting simple design of a vibrating plate, with a tyres on top of each other, seperated by mesh of different sizes and a hole cut into
each tyre to feed out the screened sizes via a tube/pipe, it might do a descent volume and job of seperation.
The screens could even be a plate with slots for the case sizes expected to be in the particular range, as per the second vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWImU7CCU8g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlZaMxbDUgQ
 
I have seen on the pistol ranges Ive been to that the gravel used is blue metal fines, , from the firing line to the butt, if thats the case with your range then i would think that the first step is to remove the blue metal from the rest , just like classifying, nice clean blue metal fines, unfortunately this needs water in the process, the water can be recycled , most of the brass cases should end up on the screen sieve, looks like my long tom highbanker might get another lease on life
The remaining material will be the fine dirt and blue metal with the lead content, the easiest cheapest furnace might be in the design similar to a blacksmiths forge charcoal is about the $25 10kg bag but you cab use a good hardwood timber if your in the bush. One of the best gizmos that Ihave bought is the ryobi one plus $79 blower, gets a fire cranking real quick glowing red hot coals, the poor mans case cleaner is made form an appropriate sized plastic bowl , the larger the better, with smaller bucket use in the upside down position held together with silicone and a long bolt vibration created from an electric motor with a nut or whatever welded to the shaft to create the out of balance effect, hence we have vibration , I remember the late arvos picking up the lead projectiles ready for smelting to mahe the next batch go cast lead projectile cant pick up a 10 litre bucket heat the casing off bits from brass, its heavy and looks like gold I thought of using one when out detecting look what i just found a 5 gram nugget lol
where is the range you are trying to rehabilitate, its going to be an ongoing task, if you can streamline the operation there may be other ranges that could use your expertise , think out side the square
 
The range is in SA, and yes it is all blue metal fines.
I have access to a number of ranges.

It seems I am using terminology interchangeably like shaker table, high banker etc - my appologies.

I could put a poly barrel on site for the water and top that up, push it with a pump and as you say "recycle it".

My thinking was a vibrating table or highbanker or a vibrating channel at a sloping angle with deep capture grooves for the heavy lead particles to collect
and build up pushing the lighter gravel out, to concentrate the lead, at least that is the idea.
Then to separate the brass from gravel with a trommel, this would take the larger parts of cases and lead also further down the trommel and
probably separate it totally from the gravel into a bin.

The trommel would likely have mesh slightly smaller than .22 cases, then a section with slots for the .22 cases cut into the side
to drop .22 cases and any gravel that size, next section for larger stone and then one for larger cases

Once the lead is concentrated I can do the smelting, same with brass.
Seen a blower like yours used by some young guys, I do have 2x of these 240V, and would likely use one of these to assist to melt the lead and brass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbYAYobyB_M

I would like not to use water with the blue gravel, but if I was going thru the "mounds/bunts" I fear there would be no choice if I was to capture
the lead from the dirt, the dirt would separate easy from the heavier lead, tumbled first with some 60mm steel balls from a mill in a concrete mixer, add water. LOL
This may be for a future task.

I think I have to run some tests to see what happens to gravel/brass in a vibrated column, same with gravel/lead, I suspect the brass will rise to the top
and the lead will settle to the bottom - this might help with separation ?

Decontamination is not the object, I intend to capture a metal resource for my own benefit, so an economic quick collection.
 
"Decontamination is not the object"

If that is the case it would end up being cheaper to go the scrap yard and just buy some brass.

BTW not all 22 cases are brass, copper and aluminium have been used also.
You'll have fun sorting all those out.
 
Hi Occasional,

The copper is usually CB caps, black powder percussion caps or starter pistol, never seen any aluminum .22 cases, but there are nickel plated, and some older Russian is steel.
The nickel plate is over brass anyway.
When melted the steel will sit in the dross on top of the molten brass, as for the nickel and copper, I doubt there will be enough to cause any
issue with contamination or I will get the kids to pick it out just in case. ;)

Centerfire brass comes in all the above and even rarely in polymer - thats where a trommel will sort the bigger brass out of the gravel,
then I'll pay the kids pocket money to pick thru that lot.

I do have some 20kg brass door handles which are in bent flat bar, and about 40kg of old plumbing fittings.
When casting you would be surprised how quickly this disappears.

And as has been suggested, if I get the range cleaning working economically, I may do it for some income.

LOL, standing in a bay shooting, in front of me there would be about 20kg of brass lying in the gravel in front of that individual bay, I could spend about 40 min picking it up by hand
or if I spent the day I could pick up 400kg using a machine....
Free brass is better for me I think, and it is recycling too.

I will pick up 2x 20L buckets of gravel and cases, and maybe 2x 20L gravel with mixed lead particles also to test methods of separation at home.
These are generally 2 separate zones on the range.
 
I could be tempted to do the same... Up this way...

Brass and lead = pocket $

And maybe I could join the club as well... Love Black Powder :)
 
Dry blower? I reckon that would have the lead sorted, maybe a screen on angle under the exit point to seperate brass (on top) and gravel back on the ground. In my mind lead or gold would behave in a very similar manner in a dry blower.

I just read your last part about melting brass. I have done this back in my scrap metal days, if you can seperate to type you will end up with mostly 'honey' brass. I sold mine to a direct exporter by 100kg lots. It was an extremely profitable exercise, I was even paid by some ranges to take it away, getting paid both ways. Almost all scrap yards Wil not accept shells even discharged at the risk of a live unit accidentally entering the waste stream, hence a basically never ending supply of free metal.

What method do you intend to melt with? I would be interested in what you are doing if it's successful and you are willing to share.
 
I think that you guys are onto a winner if you can come up with a plant to do this economically. I think lead contamination will become a big issue with the shooting sports here in Australia. California in the US has some of the most stringent laws in the world regarding the use of lead in ammunition. They even have a ban on lead in hunting rifles in some areas. The ammunition companys have come up with non lead rounds to satisfy EPA in california.
As a past member of field and game Vic I know how much lead gets set down range at a typical monthly shoot. A 75 target comp sees me get through about 5 boxes of 25 shells at 28grams of lead per shell. not to mention the plastic wads that get shot away as well.
If someone can put together a range cleaning machine that is able to process the top 5 inches of ground for lead and then replace and reseed the soil without causing errosion they will be on a good thing. :)
 
AngerManagement said:
I could be tempted to do the same... Up this way...

Brass and lead = pocket $

And maybe I could join the club as well... Love Black Powder :)

Mate if you get into Black Powder, all your range scrap will go into paying for Powder, its really expensive at this time.
The lead you can recast into minie ball or round ball.
BUT it is great fun and the smell is awesome, having a snack and drink waiting for the smoke to clear.. LOL.
:D :Y:
 
Greenhornet_au, I have the same problem. The only thoertical solution I have is to used an:
Eddy Current Non Ferrous Separator
This creates an electromagnet field in non-ferrous metals that can be used to "throw" the metal into a different receiver bin than non-metallic materials.
There is also some work by Leonard Crow for creating an Electromagnet for Attracting Copper, Aluminum and Non-Ferrous Metals like Gold.

Good Luck
 

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