MINELAB V WHITES - JUST MY HUMBLE NOOB EXPERIENCE

I dont know about you but for ages Ive drooled over the thought of owning a minelab sdc2300 or GPX5000. Sure they're expensive, but from what I've been told they are the best of the best.
Especially for Australian conditions. Even I could find gold with one????

Soooo....i decided to hire an SDC2300. i got it home and was out the door faster than a fat kid to a cupcake. It was magic. Compact. A little heavier than my SPP or GMT. It was easy to learn and before i knew it i was digging up bullets and tiny lead shots faster than the time I lost my virginity.

I decided to go to my usual haunts and see what the SPP had missed. Not much. Either i suck at detecting or I need to find better places to dig up junk.
But having picked up 1mm lead shot with the SDC2300 Im thinking the latter.

So after 2 really long swings...nothin..zip...zero...worst than my love life. If lead and rusty iron was worth something Id be a billionaire :|

My conclusion...

If Had the money and was just getting into detecting seriously Id buy the SDC2300 (or GPX5000).
It was magic to use and felt solid and well built. Plus you could pack it into a backpack. Plus..plus it uses C cell batteries!!! Rechargables or whip down the
Shop and grab a pack.

That been said...my whites SPP has a Sadie on it and rocks. Sure it doesnt pick up super small stuff like the SDC2300, but who the hell wants to dig up small shot pallets every 5 minutes???
Its like dating a girl with a push up bra...looks good on the surface...but you feel cheated when you open it up...
Now I know it was my first time and you really need to learn the machine etc....but I felt i was sucked in by all the hype.

My SPP is less than half the of the SDC2300...I'm confident it will find gold if I put it under it... and its lighter.
Not to mention that the headphones packed it in on the SDC2300 on my second outing.

Personally Id put the money into a 4WD to get away from all the trash and find virgin (slight childish snigger ) ground.

So time to hit the maps and find new places to dig up trash...lol

GMT Bandit said:

I dont know about you but for ages Ive drooled over the thought of owning a minelab sdc2300 or GPX5000. Sure they're expensive, but from what I've been told they are the best of the best.
Especially for Australian conditions. Even I could find gold with one????

Soooo....i decided to hire an SDC2300. i got it home and was out the door faster than a fat kid to a cupcake. It was magic. Compact. A little heavier than my SPP or GMT. It was easy to learn and before i knew it i was digging up bullets and tiny lead shots faster than the time I lost my virginity.

I decided to go to my usual haunts and see what the SPP had missed. Not much. Either i suck at detecting or I need to find better places to dig up junk.
But having picked up 1mm lead shot with the SDC2300 Im thinking the latter.

So after 2 really long swings...nothin..zip...zero...worst than my love life. If lead and rusty iron was worth something Id be a billionaire :|

My conclusion...

If Had the money and was just getting into detecting seriously Id buy the SDC2300 (or GPX5000).
It was magic to use and felt solid and well built. Plus you could pack it into a backpack. Plus..plus it uses C cell batteries!!! Rechargables or whip down the
Shop and grab a pack.

That been said...my whites SPP has a Sadie on it and rocks. Sure it doesnt pick up super small stuff like the SDC2300, but who the hell wants to dig up small shot pallets every 5 minutes???
Its like dating a girl with a push up bra...looks good on the surface...but you feel cheated when you open it up...
Now I know it was my first time and you really need to learn the machine etc....but I felt i was sucked in by all the hype.

My SPP is less than half the of the SDC2300...I'm confident it will find gold if I put it under it... and its lighter.
Not to mention that the headphones packed it in on the SDC2300 on my second outing.

Personally Id put the money into a 4WD to get away from all the trash and find virgin (slight childish snigger ) ground.

So time to hit the maps and find new places to dig up trash...lol

Click to expand...

When it comes to VLFs I would always pick Whites, But when it comes to PI's then ML has to be the choice if you are prospecting, But if I was coin hunting or relic hunting then I would choose the Whites due to being able to select the conductivity of the target.

Unfortunately many people sit and home with minelab envy when the machine they have is perfectly suited to finding gold.

I see people's gold hunting dreams get crushed everyday when they say they swing anything other than a 3k+ blue machine. Its just not the case.

White's suffered from poor marketing, NOT poor performance. Its simply Numbers, more people swing minelabs therefore as a group they find more. When new people come along and look for detectors they are confronted with all these pics of nuggets and minelab gear.

If whites was marketed better 5-10 years or more ago and more went into the field then more people would use them.

The Fact is that you don't need 3K+ to find gold, you can do it very well for a lot lot less.

Still reckon a well researched detectorist with any machine is your best chance of finding colour.

This comment really says it all to me.

"Personally Id put the money into a 4WD to get away from all the trash and find virgin (slight childish snigger cool ) ground"

I would add "the extra money can come in handy as a case of beer has opened many a gate."

Just My 2 Cents, as I recently had use of a whites machine and couldn't believe they didn't get used more here in Australia.

Clegy

clegy said:

Unfortunately many people sit and home with minelab envy when the machine they have is perfectly suited to finding gold.

I see people's gold hunting dreams get crushed everyday when they say they swing anything other than a 3k+ blue machine. Its just not the case.

White's suffered from poor marketing, NOT poor performance. Its simply Numbers, more people swing minelabs therefore as a group they find more. When new people come along and look for detectors they are confronted with all these pics of nuggets and minelab gear.

If whites was marketed better 5-10 years or more ago and more went into the field then more people would use them.

The Fact is that you don't need 3K+ to find gold, you can do it very well for a lot lot less.

Still reckon a well researched detectorist with any machine is your best chance of finding colour.

This comment really says it all to me.

"Personally Id put the money into a 4WD to get away from all the trash and find virgin (slight childish snigger cool ) ground"

I would add "the extra money can come in handy as a case of beer has opened many a gate."

Just My 2 Cents, as I recently had use of a whites machine and couldn't believe they didn't get used more here in Australia.

Clegy

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That's very True, Whites Australia never put the effort in to Advertising, I have been running the MXT's since June 2010 and in many thousands of hours I have never got skunked using them from the UK to OZ and back again, I guess a lot of it is down to knowing your machine, No matter whether it is red hot dirt or ground that has been torched by fire, Whites VLF coils are too hot for Aussie Dirt unless a person is using the smaller coils, but when it comes to bigger coils the Detech Excelrator and SEF coil would be the best in Aussie Dirt, Whites PI Coils no matter if they are the DF mono's or the straight out Mono coils they work well for general detecting but for prospecting NF and Coiltek and now MJ Coils unlock the more of the TDI's Energy,

One good nugget is all it takes, The success people have had with the MXT in Prospecting and my personal success using them is why I won't change models no matter what else Whites bring out, I have a few pictures of nuggets around an OZT that were pulled from 18"+ and quite a few in the 10 ozt range, where as prospectors are always searching for that magic wand, And rightly so. VLF's are easy to adapt to most if not all situations where as PI's are all Power with very little selectivity purely because the ground is the main problem, I would like to see Whites expand the TDI platform ever further,

Minelab never sit still when it comes to R&D with PI market, I still love the GP/GPX series, But if I was trying to build up a collection of small nuggets I would be looking at the SDC as a Gold Getter to tied me over until I could afford a 5k or the Zed, One thing that is constant about this hobby is that just because a new machine comes out does not mean that the older models stop find stuff,

One thing that makes me smile is the success people have had with the Deus in OZ because the foreign detector market in OZ is very limited, I have seen what they can do for nearly 8 years so it was only a matter of time before people in OZ got curious enough to get hold of one.

If Whites in OZ had done more marketing then more people would own and use them, None of the new detectors are doing anything new that my VLF can't do and by changing brands would only get me the same things just in a different format because the performance does not change and those that do change brands are doing so due to the weight of such machines, Personally I don't care about the weight because it is the results that count, In the same respect as the Guys changing from their GPX etc to the Zed, and at present the VLF market reached it's peak back in 1999/2000 and the maximum depth for a VLF was reached back in 86/87. As hobbies go this is one that moves very slowly, I think the future with modern detectors will advance through Coil Technology as we have seen with Coiltek and Detech this past year or so.

John.

Good debate, but I`ve gotta say it MLs PIs and their new Z are dedicated gold machines, no VLF I know of can come near them in mineralised ground overall, there is niche places (trashy shallow spots) I have found the Deus is good for gold hunting but it doesn`t come near the PIs and Z overall. Be assured if it proved to me otherwise I`d be swinging it, who wouldn`t with its weight advantage.

The reason they get more gold is not only because there are more out there chasing gold then any other MD, is because those users out there use them because they give the results. Pay $10000 for a job a $2000 MD will do as well at, we wouldn`t no way, well not this vegemite. I cut my teeth in on VLF gold machines before the PIs, those machine got a lot of gold and still get gold. Equally there is no way I`d chase coins with the ML PIs or Z. Tis why MD prospectors are showing so much interest in the QED, lightweight, relatively cheap and reports are very encouraging.

I only speak of the Deus VLF because it is the only modern VLF machine I`ve experience with on gold. My last Whites was a GM2 and it was a bottler in its day. I welcome anyone to show me a VLF that overall can compete with a PI or Z in gold country. But for a all purpose detector to chase coins, relics and gold, the VLFs especially if they have HF capability are the go for the user. For a dedicated coin machine VLFs are king, just love my Deus in amongst those trashy coiny places. Different tools for different jobs, this is of course my take.

clegy said:

Unfortunately many people sit and home with minelab envy when the machine they have is perfectly suited to finding gold.

I see people's gold hunting dreams get crushed everyday when they say they swing anything other than a 3k+ blue machine. Its just not the case.

White's suffered from poor marketing, NOT poor performance. Its simply Numbers, more people swing minelabs therefore as a group they find more. When new people come along and look for detectors they are confronted with all these pics of nuggets and minelab gear.

If whites was marketed better 5-10 years or more ago and more went into the field then more people would use them.

The Fact is that you don't need 3K+ to find gold, you can do it very well for a lot lot less.

Still reckon a well researched detectorist with any machine is your best chance of finding colour.

This comment really says it all to me.

"Personally Id put the money into a 4WD to get away from all the trash and find virgin (slight childish snigger cool ) ground"

I would add "the extra money can come in handy as a case of beer has opened many a gate."

Just My 2 Cents, as I recently had use of a whites machine and couldn't believe they didn't get used more here in Australia.

Clegy

Click to expand...

How much gold did you get with the Whites machine you used?

Having owned &/or used Whites machines (& other brands), including VLF's, I have to differ from some of your comments. Yes they can & will find gold (I know because I found gold with) but for mine the Minelabs are more consistent. Not because of the amount of people using them but what I've personally found with them. They perform better hands down in our conditions for me.
I don't think marketing has got much to do with it. I started out with Whites & would use one again if I had to but IMO it would be a step backwards here. If I lived in Alaska it might be a different story.

The SPP is what it is, a cheaper entry into PI territory, and with the ability to knock out mineralisation that VLF's struggle with. You cannot expect SDC performance for the price point, though you do have the advantage of being able to discriminate between high/low conductors with the conductivity switch fitted to the control box. So it does offer some flexibility when working in junky areas, searching for other non-ferrous targets, or use at the beach.

The SPP was more of an attractive proposition when I purchased mine at around $1200, though since then the price has increase by a fair amount - in fact it is no longer available on the Goldsearch website, the TDI SL is the only option.

The biggest issue with Whites detectors is our poor exchange rate with the US, and that in itself makes them a less attractive proposition when say a second hand SDC can be had for a few hundred dollars more than say the TDI-SL. Also from a consumers perspective, their PI detector range hasn't exactly moved with the times, whereas Minelab's range has been subject to constant model upgrades, and with new features and technology thrown into the mix. Not a problem for those that currently enjoy and have success using Whites detectors, though it may alienate new people starting in the hobby when there are more suitable options available.

Consumers these days tend to look for capable, easy to use and set up gold detectors, hence why detectors with seemingly complicated manual ground balancing controls are falling out of favour. You only have to look at the simplified controls on the SDC to realise that this is the case, and why they sell so well (other than its small gold ability).

Unfortunately Whites haven't given much in the way of new products for the retailers to market, and maybe that is why we still see Goldsearch advertising in GG&T amusingly stating the TDI range as being "New technology" for the goldfields, when in fact it is anything but that.

Hopefully we will see some new detectors in the near future from the likes of Whites and First Texas to compete alongside Minelab, as it should prove to be a win win situation for the detectorist, both on choice, and resultant lower pricing from competition. At the moment Minelab have the upper hand due to patents on certain technologies, so heres hoping we will see something new and innovative from the other players.

Just the facts !

Through this forum I was lucky to meet one of the nicest blokes going around who happens to own a whites SPP
Because of the weight I was contemplating getting one for my wife.
We detect the same 3 grounds here in SA and started about the same time.
I own a Minelab SDC 2300
HE IS NO BETTER THAN I OR I THAN HIM as far as detecting goes
I have been lucky enough to just go over 1 oz of SA gold
To my knowledge he is still to find any gold with the Whites here in SA
I am now looking at a QED for my wife

You do the math !

The whites SPP has awesome price/performance ratio in my opinion. Did have when it was $1200

I own an SDC and a GPZ...My father inlaw owns the SPP.

Every time we go out detecting together without fail he will come home with a gram or two.
Often using the GPZ i come home with nothing.

The main reason though that i think he is doing so well is because of the little miner john folded mono coil.
It lets him get into all the little tight spots i cant get close to.

Honestly i come home absolutely gobsmacked sometimes at how well he has learnt to use the SPP since he started detecting with me.(I'll take a little credit for teaching him the basics

I have learnt to use my GPZ competently and now wouldnt give it up for the world.......but if i was a newby starting out on a budget it would be hard to ignore the Whites SPP.
And as u can see on the coil he digs everything.

LC76...you give me hope...lol

The standard coils on the SPP are dogs...you wouldnt even catch a cold with one.
I got my 1st 1.2g nugget when I put a sadie on her.

Definitely invest in better coils on your whites detectors!!!!

No Detector company is going to match ML when it comes to getting Gold gram per gram or nugget for nugget In OZ because ML are made for Aussie Dirt and they have access to such ground 365 days of the year and they have the Most Excellent Staff who are really top of their field, But companies like Whites, Garrett are not too far behind in the respect that they will work there and they will find Gold but not quite to the level that ML can, If the Gold is there them an ML machine has a 98/99% chance of finding it where as Whites are in the 90/95% range and it is the 9% that ML have is what seals the deal,

As LC76 has shown and pointed out Whites work and do pretty Good when you take in to account the cost involved, I still Own the TDI SL and the MXT and a few others, The MXT is the only machine that I have ever had a 100% strike rate with, I found Gold in OZ and I found Gold Over here with it, and I have found everything else in between, So Whites is a real good brand / product,

It is not a life and death situation where I have to find Gold and I mean that in a nice way, Because the Mrs was not happy back when I bought my first GP-3500, So I detect for fun not because I have too or prove to the Mrs that my investment was a wise one, And as many here have incredible stories about their ML machines I have some good ones with my Whites, With the amount of Coils I have and the type of Coils I have there is no where where my MXT won't work, and In OZ it is never going to match a GP/GPX but on fine surface Gold it will hang with the SDC, the smallest item I have found weighed 0.006 grams and it can see bits half that weight on the surface and where the ground is not so hot it will go very deep,

It is that extra 9% success rate that ML have that adds to the Cost and whether a person wants to pay for that extra 9% or not is a personal matter, If a person is going to spend all their spare time out in the bush then the answer is yes if you are only going out there a couple of times a year then NO, If a person just wants to have fun then buy something in between, The SPP and the SL and the Pro all have something to offer, so that's 3 options depending on budget, and for those who can't afford a GPX/SDC these machines give them a chance to get out there and mix it up with the rest of the guys and just have fun and that is what it is all about,

John.

You`ve nailed it RR, depends on the hours you have to spend chasing the yellow which MD`s for the user. Me I spend many 100`s of hours each year chasing it, have for yonks. So the investment in the best gold MD is very worthwhile, in fact compared to what I spend on 4WD, side by sides, bikes etc to get to those remote places, the detector is only a small proportion of what it costs. Regardless every nugget is still bloody good fun for this old fart.
RR, As my last whites was a GM2,(defected to ML then ) what Whites VLF has replaced that in the gold dept?

Clegy, the VLF detector that has been around for yonks and still is a favorite for a lot of people into gold is the Gold Bug 2. It sort of "knocked" the GM2 off the perch back when VLFs were the gold getters. If the Deus with the HF coil option can unseat the GB2, or todays Whites equivalent it will be a top all rounder no doubt. Then what about the Makro and the other more recently introduced lower priced(but not lower featured) VLFs. The ability to handle hot ground is the key in OZ as I see it.

Of interest, been a lot of talk of air tests, not into air tests myself, they are of no use in the field but there I suspect most VLFs hold their own.

Yeah Norvic, Once or twice I have bought detectors with my heart and not my head and I learned a few lessons from it, from that a person needs to keep a close eye on reality as to what to expect and not what one dreams, Been there Done that. I have no doubts if I had access to the Triangle then I would own the Zed and a GPX and the SDC because once I start finding the Good stuff they would be sold and I would plough the money back in to buying new gear and if I was lucky enough I no doubt would be buying D9's and then some, I seem to forget when to stop buying stuff and then I end up needing help,

This is not a hobby to jump feet first in to, And ones Goals should grow with ones knowledge along the way along with the purchase of the type of machine, Of coarse the internet has changed some of this now because we can reach out to folks and get help, Back when I started everything was trial and error And a couple of dozen swear words, followed by the Ear Bashing from the Mrs for coming out with such things because the Kids were in Ear Shot,

Gotta Love this Hobby, lol.

John.

I bought a 2nd hand TDI Pro Oz a while back, and really liked it. Unfortunatley didnt find much color with it, but I reckon I would have had I stuck to it and got some new coils. What I really liked about it, was the speaker, the overall erganomics of the machine. It was light, easy to swing and and I wasn't tethered to it.
If whites could have fine tuned it a little more, given it a bit more ooomph and a simple ground balance system (maybe auto) it would have been a real handy machine.
Ive just ordered a QED to fill the gap left by the TDI, I really regreted selling it.
The MXT i had was another regretful sale, both machines were sold to fund a GPX4500 and a couple of NF evo coils, and I found regular gold from the 1st time I got it.
If I had of had instant sucess with the TDI, I would have stuck to it to, a confidence thing. I was very inexperienced when I got the TDI, and lacked confidence in myself and the machine, Im still inexperienced, but with quite few gold finds now, and am confident with what I do, and reckon the QED will work nicley for me.

davent said:

I bought a 2nd hand TDI Pro Oz a while back, and really liked it. Unfortunatley didnt find much color with it, but I reckon I would have had I stuck to it and got some new coils. What I really liked about it, was the speaker, the overall erganomics of the machine. It was light, easy to swing and and I wasn't tethered to it.
If whites could have fine tuned it a little more, given it a bit more ooomph and a simple ground balance system (maybe auto) it would have been a real handy machine.
Ive just ordered a QED to fill the gap left by the TDI, I really regreted selling it.
The MXT i had was another regretful sale, both machines were sold to fund a GPX4500 and a couple of NF evo coils, and I found regular gold from the 1st time I got it.
If I had of had instant sucess with the TDI, I would have stuck to it to, a confidence thing. I was very inexperienced when I got the TDI, and lacked confidence in myself and the machine, Im still inexperienced, but with quite few gold finds now, and am confident with what I do, and reckon the QED will work nicley for me.

Click to expand...

Yeah Dave, Ditch the factory Coil and you would have done much better, I still have the SL but I swear that 12"DF Coil is a Relic Coil, and the Straight Mono is no better, It does go deep and it can find stuff But it is blind to Tiny Nuggets, The MXT will whoop it's A$$, The smallest bits that the 12"DF can see is about 0.15 to 0.17gm, The MXT with the standard Coil is 0.02 to 0.03gr and with the 5.3 (6") concentric I have found bits of lead weighing 0.006gm, I have 8 or 9 coils for it and the 5.3 is way hotter than the 6x4 and the best coil for hotter ground and general searching is the 14x10 Detech and it is not far behind the 15" MXT Max coil, But it is 40% lighter than the Max Coil.

John.

What a lot of people miss is the fact not everyone has the same detecting habits.

Some are harcore and go at ecery opportunity, but the vast majority are casual hunters and go between 1 and 5 times a year on a dedicated gold finding trip.

For those casual Gold detectorists, a top end gold machine is a lot of money to have sitting in the cupboard 340+ days a year. The same goes for coin machines, No Point having a CTX if all you do is hit the local tot lot once a month for six pack money.

What personally gets me is the constant put down of NEW Detectorists and their purchase decisions.
How many newbies that just got 705's and want to hit the gold fields have their dreams crushed by people saying "Mate your dreamin!" I Know I am one of them. $999 for the dual Pack and when I hit the forums got told I was mad for even wasting time trying to find gold. From that point on I had detector envy and that spoiled a few trips out west because I didn't bother even going. It ended up with me selling detectors for a living as the machine I wanted could not be bought locally.

From a new detectorists point if view, It says on the BOX "GOLD PACK or DUAL PACK" and I can't see any fine print that says "does not find gold".

That's more my Point, NOT everyone needs the best detector that money can buy to enjoy the hobby and people that start at $500 detectors should be encouraged to get out and use them and get to know all the other aspects like research, reading ground, asking permissions and networking with other detectorists. Having your dreams shot on the day you open the box is not a good look for anyone.

I have had quite a few people that are very disheartened when they start to research their first machine and they ask me in a kind of defeated voice, "Do I really need to spend that much money on 2 machines to go gold hunting 3 times a year and chase a few $2 coins at the park?"

I say to these Folk, it doesn't matter what you swing, if you are in the right area and your detector is turned on and pointed at the ground, you are a chance! ZED or Aldi it doesn't matter. Sitting at home looking at the 705 and thinking you're wasting your time doing a day trip to the goldfields because its not a high end PI is WRONG. Get out there and EXPERIENCE it!

YES The ZED and the other Blue bricks are the leaders in the field at the moment as far as locating gold, No doubt their machines perform better in Australian Gold fields. But like I said not everyone needs the best and quite often a 68 VW Beetle will get you to your destination just as well as a 7 series BMW.

Hope that makes sense

Clegy

Amen to that Clegy,

There are no real bad detectors except One that I won't mention, I have no quarms about following GPX and Zed users although I may not find anything I can at leased ID their targets for them, Lol. :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's a hobby and they should be fun and regardless of what machine a person uses just think of all the fun buying all the camping gear your gonna have and the Camp fire talk at the end of a long day,

John.

Tis all about expectations, expect to get gold first out with x brand, whether $500 or $10000 unless your extremely lucky or very experienced your going to be disappointed. Same with detector settings follow the manufacturers recos then with experience you fiddle to set them to suit you. It is that journey where you gain that experience that makes it a top hobby and if you have the time even make it pay. The machine of whatever brand or technology is only a small percentage of your chances, a positive attitude and the ability to learn is the rest. But most of all enjoy as it is a top hobby for sure.

If your only going to be doing a gold specific trip between 1-5 times a year then hiring a top line unit is your best option where available.
Your next best option is to buy the best machine you can afford. If that's a SPP or Xterra 705 or whatever then so be it. Like said previously they will all find gold (to some degree - I wouldn't bank on an Aldi to find much in iron/mineral rich gold ground ).
Unfortunately there is no easy way around it. As much as being told your machine won't give you much chance to get amongst the gold is disheartening so is planning for & going on your infrequent gold prospecting trips only to go home empty handed! A big part of the enjoyment of this hobby comes with the finds. No finds & the enjoyment wanes, the doubt starts, the confidence drops then ultimately a fair percentage of new comers will give it away altogether. That's why a lot of us advise to get the best machine possible to start with even if that means saving a bit more. It's not a put down IMO but advise given in a lot of cases that has been earned through our own experiences. I don't sell detectors or have any connection to or profit from giving my own honest advice earned through my own journey + experiences. I've never even owned a new Minelab but save until I can afford a good used one with warranty if possible. That's been my way of doing it.
There are many examples of new comers giving it away or becoming frustrated with lesser machines on this forum. Those who stick with it are those who have ultimately upgraded machines & then started finding consistent gold on their trips. That is also well documented on this site.
Edit: Yes research would be the best tool in finding gold. A lot do expect miracles out of any machine on the wrong area/ground.

Even if a person cuts their teeth on a 705 or what ever on the beach or in the parks that will fuel their desires to go on to bigger and better things and all their goldies can go towards a bigger and better machine, As their knowledge grows so will their Goals, I have seen many here go down that route and yet some have just jumped for the big guns in less than a month or two, Not the best Idea but I understand their want and need to get their hands on a Beast and get swinging,

I am in a good place when it comes to my machines and coils, they are all but bullet proof, and I can't see anything out there that offers a next level because at long last my set up is where I have always wanted to be, thousands of hours of detecting and testing coil after coil has taken it's toll but I am where I want to be, I don't have a clue what is next, But who ever makes it It will have to be pretty special,

John.