Whites SPP Upgrading Batteries?

12~15 volt Li-Ion with 18650 cells slide in battery trays for use with the SPP in Oz is already made and in use, you choose the number of cells that make up the voltage and capacity, charger is Oz plugged and approved for our 240v or alternative 12 volt use.

My preference is the 12 volt drop in tray that will take 3/6 18650 Li-Ion cells giving 3500/7000 mAh.

Haven't noticed any sensitivity/depth gain by using higher than 12 volt.

Ridge Runner said:

Hard Luck said:

thedigger said:

Hi Daryl
The higher the voltage,the lower the current.
I have fitted 2 sets 3.7v of lithium ion in parallel,that puts out about 15v fully charged.

Regards Frank

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I have finally found someone that can do this mod for me. What Mah should the batteries be?
Can anyone help out?

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Well I would aim for 3400s or even 4100s if you can find them.

john

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People, please stop spreading this nonsense, some one may finish with their SPP going up in the smoke.
When you increase voltage the current will also increase, not opposite.
Ohm law, I=U/R, current equals voltage divided by resistance. You are increasing voltage by using higher voltage batteries and your resistance ( the detectors electronics ) remains same. Therefore the current drawn from the batteries will increase.
As you increase voltage by using different batteries eventually you will reach a point when something will give up and your detector will go up in puff of smoke. Most likely you will exceed voltage rating of electrolytic caps or exceed current rating of the transistor that drives he coil.
Rough calculation of current drawn from the 16V battery. With standard battery pack of 9.6V current drawn by detector is about 0.46A.
R=U/I 9.6/0.46=20.86. So, resistance or more correctly impedance of SPP as seen by battery is about 21 Ohms. Therefore 16/21=0.76.
So with 16V battery pack your SPP will using about 0.75 A.
Karl

KarlS said:

Ridge Runner said:

Hard Luck said:

thedigger said:

Hi Daryl
The higher the voltage,the lower the current.
I have fitted 2 sets 3.7v of lithium ion in parallel,that puts out about 15v fully charged.

Regards Frank

Click to expand...

I have finally found someone that can do this mod for me. What Mah should the batteries be?
Can anyone help out?

Click to expand...

Well I would aim for 3400s or even 4100s if you can find them.

john

Click to expand...

People, please stop spreading this nonsense, some one may finish with their SPP going up in the smoke.
When you increase voltage the current will also increase, not opposite.
Ohm law, I=U/R, current equals voltage divided by resistance. You are increasing voltage by using higher voltage batteries and your resistance ( the detectors electronics ) remains same. Therefore the current drawn from the batteries will increase.
As you increase voltage by using different batteries eventually you will reach a point when something will give up and your detector will go up in puff of smoke. Most likely you will exceed voltage rating of electrolytic caps or exceed current rating of the transistor that drives he coil.
Rough calculation of current drawn from the 16V battery. With standard battery pack of 9.6V current drawn by detector is about 0.46A.
R=U/I 9.6/0.46=20.86. So, resistance or more correctly impedance of SPP as seen by battery is about 21 Ohms. Therefore 16/21=0.76.
So with 16V battery pack your SPP will using about 0.75 A.
Karl

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After doing tests using 8x2650 mah I got 6 hours 37 minutes, Then I used 9x 2700 mah and I got about 13.2 volts and a run time of 6 hours 38 minutes, There is no nonsense about it, by adding more mah's it will mean a longer run time,

The standard Battery Pack equals 2200 mah which gives a run time of 4 hours 20 minutes, and when I take the standard HD pack out of the charger it says it has about 11.3 to 11.63 Volts in it, Residual charge or not those are the run times and I have tested that many Batteries I have about 70 nimh AA Batteries to choose from ranging from 2300 mah to 2700s and 16 fake 2900s

Like it or not those figures happened every day for 7 days plus or minus 4 or 5 minutes,

I have invested some serious money in to finding what works and what don't.

This is just some of them.

John, as long you stay with 8 NiMh batteries what you saying is correct. As you increase battery capacity you will get proportional increase in run time. Actually you may get little bit longer run time with higher capacity batteries the expected, becouse the rate of discharge to the capacity is lower.
What I'm talking about is when you increase battery voltage by using higher voltage batteries. Then the run time will not be proportional as with standard batteries, becouse power consumption will be higher.
Karl

KarlS said:

John, as long you stay with 8 NiMh batteries what you saying is correct. As you increase battery capacity you will get proportional increase in run time. Actually you may get little bit longer run time with higher capacity batteries the expected, becouse the rate of discharge to the capacity is lower.
What I'm talking about is when you increase battery voltage by using higher voltage batteries. Then the run time will not be proportional as with standard batteries, becouse power consumption will be higher.
Karl

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I agree, this higher voltage power Quest bothers me for 2 reasons, 1) reliability, 2) and Burn time,, I did not see any difference between running 11.6 or 13 volts, Once it gets up around 14.6 then there is a difference, Personally I would be running Nenads 2900s and be done with it because if I am get 6.5+ hours from the 2650s then the 2900s are going to be close to 8 hours and it was the run time that was our main Goal, The problems turned up when thoughts turned to raising the Voltage to that of the Pro,

The Up side to all this was when I said about running the Energizer Lithium disposable batteries, which does give a huge run time and a total of 14.64 volts although at a premium, But as a last resort (Backup) or a long weekend they tick all the boxes.

john

I don't know about you guys, but I need a cold beer after that arm wrestle.

SunriseBoy said:

I don't know about you guys, but I need a cold beer after that arm wrestle.

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After over 45 years career in electrical and electronics industries it is difficult for me to keep silent when some complete nonsense is repeated over and over. If anyone thinks that the current decreases when the voltage increase and the load remains same, produce math that will prove it.
Karl

Hey Karl. I hear ya'. Like you, I believe facts are what ought to drive any situation like this. Volkswagen has found that out the hard way!

I'm just not smart enough to understand this kind of thing. I'll just get the better batteries and stick with them.

Hard Luck said:

ozziii said:

Hard Luck said:

thedigger said:

Hi Daryl
The higher the voltage,the lower the current.
I have fitted 2 sets 3.7v of lithium ion in parallel,that puts out about 15v fully charged.

Regards Frank

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I have finally found someone that can do this mod for me. What Mah should the batteries be?
Can anyone help out?

Click to expand...

The picture I posted the other day is what "the digger" is using now in his SPP, that's his battery set up, he showed it to me last week at Creswick & sent that pic to me so I could try to make one. He's using the 3.2v LiFe batteries though, not 3.7v.

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I hear you ozziii. I too had a chat to thedigger last weekend at Creswick and he showed me the pack as well. And he did say 3.2v batteries should be used.
Just wondering if this post here is a typo. Maybe thedigger can chime into the conversation and clarify it.
Would there be any problems with using 3.7v as opposed to 3.2v?

I just want to make sure I get the right battery.

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I think the 3.7v Lithium Ion fully charged would supply to much voltage, would be over 16v, that might have been why Frank used the 3.2v LiFePO4 batteries & where the 14.5v comes from when fully charged. I don't know how to actually explain it properly but his wiring would make it like its running on 4x 3.2v batteries for 12.8v, but using 8 batteries. Not sure if they call it running in series or parallel but it would make the 8x 3.2v batteries supply 12.8v of power, or when fully charged 14.5v, so well under the maximum.

Hope that's understandable,haha

Question, will running a higher voltage make EMI more noticeable.?

Today we tried using the 1.5v alkaline batteries, I checked the voltage output from the battery tray & it was 13.31v.
When I turned detector on there was noticeable interference, more than I've had before even when near a mobile phone tower & HV power lines, but the place we were at didn't have that around, only normal power lines about 200m away.
If I turned gain down to just above half way it was ok but still made a slight warble here & there but turning gain to 3/4 or more caused more interference noise & was harder to tune. As this was the first time we used batteries with a higher voltage I was just wondering if that would have something to do with it. I couldn't try the rechargeable pack as we left it at home.

Thanks.

Interesting debate above guys and I'm not doubting your years of experience Karl.

I'm not necessarily after more run time from my batteries as I'm happy to have a break after 3 hours of detecting, throw the recharge pack on the inverter the head back out for another 2-3 hours with the battery charged up again.
The reason I've been chasing more voltage is because I was lead to believe that more voltage = more depth on the SPP/SL.
I have the standard 2200mah NiMh recharge pack (it drops voltage too fast for my liking), the RnB 3100mah is great and only drops 1 - 1.5 volt after 3 hours and I've used the Energizer Lithium Ion AA's which gave the highest voltage and longest run time, I noticed I was finding shot pellets at 1-2 inches deep which I struggle to do with the other batteries, maybe it's perceived better sensitivity because I expect it to be or maybe it's because I was in Talbot and the ground conditions are different to my other spots (most likely), either way it comes down to using what you're confident will work best for you.
I'm happy with my RnB pack, will only ever keep the NiMh pack as a last resort backup pack and as for the Energizer Lithium Ion AA's if you're saying they won't provide any extra depth with higher Voltage then I'd happily give then a miss, I might just give them one more go though and do some testing on targets in the field to see for myself if there's any benefit with them, happy if there's not as it will save me money in the long run.

Interesting debate for sure and one that needs to be sorted once and for all so us SPP/SL users can head out confident that we are not lacking in machine ability because we haven't got the best battery pack.

Just an aside from the battery issue; I was working under power-lines today and a Telstra cable (750mls deep) and there was no interference at all. As a new kid in this racket, using an SL, I can only presume that is the sign of a very stable machine. But Holy Crap!...spending hours at a time digging cartridge shells, bits of wire, rings pulls etc., it is incredibly hard work. Especially after such a long dry spell.

Now I know why so many find so little. To be 'successful'; there has to be a real determination and persevering attitude to the chase to have it prove profitable. I'll sure need that because I'm not in this to while away the hours or doing it as a 'hobby'.

ProspectorPete said:

Interesting debate above guys and I'm not doubting your years of experience Karl.

I'm not necessarily after more run time from my batteries as I'm happy to have a break after 3 hours of detecting, throw the recharge pack on the inverter the head back out for another 2-3 hours with the battery charged up again.
The reason I've been chasing more voltage is because I was lead to believe that more voltage = more depth on the SPP/SL.
I have the standard 2200mah NiMh recharge pack (it drops voltage too fast for my liking), the RnB 3100mah is great and only drops 1 - 1.5 volt after 3 hours and I've used the Energizer Lithium Ion AA's which gave the highest voltage and longest run time, I noticed I was finding shot pellets at 1-2 inches deep which I struggle to do with the other batteries, maybe it's perceived better sensitivity because I expect it to be or maybe it's because I was in Talbot and the ground conditions are different to my other spots (most likely), either way it comes down to using what you're confident will work best for you.
I'm happy with my RnB pack, will only ever keep the NiMh pack as a last resort backup pack and as for the Energizer Lithium Ion AA's if you're saying they won't provide any extra depth with higher Voltage then I'd happily give then a miss, I might just give them one more go though and do some testing on targets in the field to see for myself if there's any benefit with them, happy if there's not as it will save me money in the long run.

Interesting debate for sure and one that needs to be sorted once and for all so us SPP/SL users can head out confident that we are not lacking in machine ability because we haven't got the best battery pack.

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I have run my SPP with cheap Chinese lithium ion batteries for only about two hours so far. Some of that time I have spent testing on small gold and lead shot buried in the ground.and swapping Li-ion and Standart battery pack. With 8 inch coil there is definitive depth increase of about 1 to 4 cm when using Li-ion at about 16 Volts. Bigger the target bigger the depth increase. So it is not your perception, it is real.
How much of extra depth you can get will depend on the coil, target, ground and operator.
Now, will the extra voltage damage the detector. Well I don't know. Some time ago on other forum someone (maybe Reg) posted that he spoke to White's Tech and was told the SPP can take up to 18 Volts maximum. But then someone posted that some caps are rated only 16 Volts. Last time I had machine open I forgot to comfirm it. So I personally would not run SPP on more then 16 Volts.
Li-ion rechargable 3.7 Volts batteries when charged will measure up to 4.4 Volts when measured with modern digital mutimeter that got 10 mega Ohm or more impedance. Indicating that your battery pack will have up to 17.4 V. That measurement is completely irrelevant because as soon as you switch the detector on and provide load to the battery the voltage will settle at around 14.8 to 15.5 Volts depending on batteries.
Now, because of higher voltage the detector will draw more current from the battery. So you can not calculate how long the battery will last based on you experience with standart battery pack 2000mAh gives you about 4 hours. With cheap Li-ion home made battery pack using two banks 1200 mAh in parallel you may get about two hours run time. Again it will depend on quality and accuracy of Ah rating.
One more thing, the low batt warning light will be useless, you battery pack will be dead flat and damaged long time before red light comes on
Karl

SunriseBoy said:

Just an aside from the battery issue; I was working under power-lines today and a Telstra cable (750mls deep) and there was no interference at all. As a new kid in this racket, using an SL, I can only presume that is the sign of a very stable machine. But Holy Crap!...spending hours at a time digging cartridge shells, bits of wire, rings pulls etc., it is incredibly hard work. Especially after such a long dry spell.

Now I know why so many find so little. To be 'successful'; there has to be a real determination and persevering attitude to the chase to have it prove profitable. I'll sure need that because I'm not in this to while away the hours or doing it as a 'hobby'.

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Welcome to the club. I suppose that what makes gold so expensive.
Karl

ozziii said:

Question, will running a higher voltage make EMI more noticeable.?

Today we tried using the 1.5v alkaline batteries, I checked the voltage output from the battery tray & it was 13.31v.
When I turned detector on there was noticeable interference, more than I've had before even when near a mobile phone tower & HV power lines, but the place we were at didn't have that around, only normal power lines about 200m away.
If I turned gain down to just above half way it was ok but still made a slight warble here & there but turning gain to 3/4 or more caused more interference noise & was harder to tune. As this was the first time we used batteries with a higher voltage I was just wondering if that would have something to do with it. I couldn't try the rechargeable pack as we left it at home.

Thanks.

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No mate, The voltage won't make the EMI stand out, at different times of the day the EMI will change by the hour but I have never had to reduce the Gain like that even running the machine in the City so maybe you need to turn that frequency knob at a fraction at a time and then wait for about 15 seconds to see how it responds to each adjustment, if you turn that knob an 1/8 of an inch that is way too much because you could be turning it and Skipping Hundreds of Frequencies and there for missing the Sweet spot, We all have to re tune and sometimes it takes a couple go's at it,

Because of the filtering system on the SL/SPP these are the hardest of the TDI's to tune because it is hard to hear the EMI unlike the older TDI and the Pro, In stead of testing targets I think the first thing people should learn with these two machines is Learn to tune them, So heres at Tip for you MOST unwanted signals will vanish when the frequency Control is set between 9 oclock and 2 o'clock ish and the machine seems to Detect or becomes more sensitive at around the 10 o'clock position,

Anyways give that a go and see how you get on,

Good luck,, John.

I've lost contact with a poster (who's name has escaped me, my sincere apologies) from whom I'm buying some DVDs. Will someone refresh my memory or will the poster PM me please.

Thanks John, I think the frequency might be my problem then, I did move it but went to far so will have to try that area again & remember to only use very small frequency adjustments. I had the dial turned around to near the 7-8 o'clock position & didn't take enough time to see how the machine reacted to the new setting, probably done the 360 spin to fast as well but the EMI seemed to be coming from all directions.
Will head back to same spot again & see how things go.
Thanks.

ozziii said:

Question, will running a higher voltage make EMI more noticeable.?

Today we tried using the 1.5v alkaline batteries, I checked the voltage output from the battery tray & it was 13.31v.
When I turned detector on there was noticeable interference, more than I've had before even when near a mobile phone tower & HV power lines, but the place we were at didn't have that around, only normal power lines about 200m away.
If I turned gain down to just above half way it was ok but still made a slight warble here & there but turning gain to 3/4 or more caused more interference noise & was harder to tune. As this was the first time we used batteries with a higher voltage I was just wondering if that would have something to do with it. I couldn't try the rechargeable pack as we left it at home.

Thanks.

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Not sure if your using the speaker or use headphones but just a thought here & KarlS may be able to expand or debunk it but I am thinking if the speaker etc. is run unregulated from the power supply, whatever choice you make re: voltage, then wouldn't any increase in voltage (which in turn increases current) also increase or amplify sound/noise? This might be leading to a perception of better depth due to increased target volume or increase unwanted noise/s much like inline boosters/amps such as the B&Z, Rooster Booster etc. can/do.
Also depending on what the speaker is rated at voltage wise it may also be another opportunity to "let the smoke out" of something if the speakers voltage is exceeded - although probably unlikely?

With boosters they have a volume control to adjust with & not entirely sure of the electronics behind a straight thru speaker with no volume control? Just thinking an increase in voltage may = an increase in volume/noise?

As of now, it's been my experience that not using head-phones is much more comfortable. I can hear the threshold and any bips on the speaker. Is there an advantage, power-wise in using headphones?

The batteries I used were just the 1.5v batteries that came with the detector, although after about 10 minutes use they were reading 12.5v.
Using the speaker at the moment as we don't have headphones just yet.
It was just strange as the only thing changed was the batteries & location, the location was probably only 10km from other places I have been with no problems. There is a fire watch tower in the area but its a fair few Km from where we were so don't think that would have caused problems. Will have to go back there & try again I think.