Whites SPP Upgrading Batteries?

Hi. All. Just wondering. considering that ML machines get greater depth partly due to a higher voltage system, can we do the same with the SPP.? Having inspected the interior of the SPP it appears that the wiring and plugs are indeed smaller and finer than the TDI....eg. the switch I bought to do the conductivity mod. for the SPP from a TDI SL is obviously heavier.... soooooo if we were to upgrade the battery to a higher voltage, may that fry the finer electronics or is there a limit we could get away with?

ronniecruisin said:

Hi. All. Just wondering. considering that ML machines get greater depth partly due to a higher voltage system, can we do the same with the SPP.? Having inspected the interior of the SPP it appears that the wiring and plugs are indeed smaller and finer than the TDI....eg. the switch I bought to do the conductivity mod. for the SPP from a TDI SL is obviously heavier.... soooooo if we were to upgrade the battery to a higher voltage, may that fry the finer electronics or is there a limit we could get away with?

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It should not have an effect on it because the Voltage is regulated to 16.0 volts Max

Ok

Oh. OK. Do you know what voltage it runs at on the supplied battery pack?

ronniecruisin said:

Oh. OK. Do you know what voltage it runs at on the supplied battery pack?

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Whites Claim 9.6 But when I Tested it the Meter said 11.2 To 11.6 depending which Pack I was testing because I have 3 for mine and the Dry cell Pack should put out about 12.6 with white supplied Batteries, But with Duracells or Energizers you will get around 13.36 volts but if you put Energizer Lithium Batteries you get 1.82x8 = 14.56 volts which brings a bit closer to the TDI Pro's Power and gives you longer Run Time Too, Plus they Never Leak and have a shelf life of 10 years+ along with being able to stand extreme temps IE -20c to +50C+/- and they will run things for up to 10 times Longer but they are more expensive But they will be there when you need them,

hope this helps,

Ridge Runner said:

ronniecruisin said:

Hi. All. Just wondering. considering that ML machines get greater depth partly due to a higher voltage system, can we do the same with the SPP.? Having inspected the interior of the SPP it appears that the wiring and plugs are indeed smaller and finer than the TDI....eg. the switch I bought to do the conductivity mod. for the SPP from a TDI SL is obviously heavier.... soooooo if we were to upgrade the battery to a higher voltage, may that fry the finer electronics or is there a limit we could get away with?

Click to expand...

It should not have an effect on it because the Voltage is regulated to 16.0 volts Max

Ok

Click to expand...

As far I can see voltage is not regulated. It should not exceed 16V because some caps on board are rated 16V only. I have run SPP on 13 Volts without any problems . And yes, you will get bit more depth over supplied NiMh batteries.
Ronnie, if you want correct 3 pin plug and pins, send me email. But beware, you will someone to crimp wires on it, without right crimping tool it is almost impossible to do it.
Karl

You wouldn't see much difference if you were to double the voltage on the SPP or TDI for that matter. The reason is it takes a huge energy increase into the coil for little gain.

BTW, there is no protection or regulation in the SPP or any other White's to protect for too much voltage, so don't even consider it because the results would be disastrous. The TDI might blow a fuse once one of the regulators or other parts blew but the unit wouldn't work after that without repair. The SPP was designed for a maximum of 18V but there is nothing to limit it, so changing the voltage to more would only cause components to fail.

The depth difference between the ML and the TDI series, regardless of which one has more to do with front end sensitivity and design more than anything. Keep in mind that ML has two pulse lengths with one at 250 usec pulse. The TDI and SPP have a 100 usec pulse length. This 100 usec pulse is more than sufficient for most gold found which is a half oz or less. Not much difference would be noticed even if the pulse was extended to 250usec even on bigger gold. In fact, some early GS 5's could select between 100 usec and 200 usec and no one noticed any difference when hunting for gold.

Find and early TDI (through the hole unit) and you can adjust things with a few parts changes or internal pot adjustments. Only a couple of internal pots would make a difference, but most will cause a serious degrading of performance, so even that isn't recommended.

Two big reasons for reduced depth is noise and GB method. The changing of the front end op amp on the TDI helps with noise, but there isn't a satisfactory replacement for the SPP preamp that I have found yet. Keep in mind that the ML costs close to 5 times or maybe more over there than the SPP and 2 to 3 times more than the TDI. At least part of that difference in price is because of engineering to build the best that is practical.

Someone mentioned some time back the difference in depth capability with the GB off between the ML and the TDI was close to less than 10%. With the GB on, the difference can vary with the TDI often beating the most expensive ML under the right conditions. To see what I mean, check out some of the ATX videos where the ML flat misses some gold. These videos were staged to show just what can happen with the wrong setting selection on the ML for the gold involved.

With all that said, the ML is clearly superior but you pay a hefty price difference for that superiority. So, don't expect a Ferrari performance on a Chevy cost.

Reg said:

You wouldn't see much difference if you were to double the voltage on the SPP or TDI for that matter. The reason is it takes a huge energy increase into the coil for little gain.

BTW, there is no protection or regulation in the SPP or any other White's to protect for too much voltage, so don't even consider it because the results would be disastrous. The TDI might blow a fuse once one of the regulators or other parts blew but the unit wouldn't work after that without repair. The SPP was designed for a maximum of 18V but there is nothing to limit it, so changing the voltage to more would only cause components to fail.

The depth difference between the ML and the TDI series, regardless of which one has more to do with front end sensitivity and design more than anything. Keep in mind that ML has two pulse lengths with one at 250 usec pulse. The TDI and SPP have a 100 usec pulse length. This 100 usec pulse is more than sufficient for most gold found which is a half oz or less. Not much difference would be noticed even if the pulse was extended to 250usec even on bigger gold. In fact, some early GS 5's could select between 100 usec and 200 usec and no one noticed any difference when hunting for gold.

Find and early TDI (through the hole unit) and you can adjust things with a few parts changes or internal pot adjustments. Only a couple of internal pots would make a difference, but most will cause a serious degrading of performance, so even that isn't recommended.

Two big reasons for reduced depth is noise and GB method. The changing of the front end op amp on the TDI helps with noise, but there isn't a satisfactory replacement for the SPP preamp that I have found yet. Keep in mind that the ML costs close to 5 times or maybe more over there than the SPP and 2 to 3 times more than the TDI. At least part of that difference in price is because of engineering to build the best that is practical.

Someone mentioned some time back the difference in depth capability with the GB off between the ML and the TDI was close to less than 10%. With the GB on, the difference can vary with the TDI often beating the most expensive ML under the right conditions. To see what I mean, check out some of the ATX videos where the ML flat misses some gold. These videos were staged to show just what can happen with the wrong setting selection on the ML for the gold involved.

With all that said, the ML is clearly superior but you pay a hefty price difference for that superiority. So, don't expect a Ferrari performance on a Chevy cost.

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Reg, You posted on a couple of other forums that by using certain batteries and increasing the power would in fact give you some of the power back that was lost from the use of the noise cancelling circuit, and that the difference between the TDI Pro and the TDI SL was approximately 10% +/- Due to the Noise Cancelling System. So By running it at around 12 volts give a little more power/Depth.

Reg, Here is the post that I am referring to, and I hope you don't mind me posting it here But from your earlier post I am now confused because I have read so many of them and now you are saying the exact opposite, But from this post below I have found it to be Extremely Accurite Regarding the Power Matching between the TDI Pro and the TDI SL and even More so if you Read some of Your Depth/ Power Tricks using the GB settings and your settings can mean up to a 25% depth increase maybe more, Thanks for posting it Because all those do work and I advise anyone with a TDI SL to Read them Because I learned more USEABLE Info in under 10 minates than what a month in the field would of taught me,

Take Care,

Posted by: Reg
Date: June 25, 2012 12:40AM


Hi,

If you are like me, you will end up with more than one battery pack and the one you bought will work well enough until that time when you own two. Besides, if you own more than one White's machine like me, the AW 2200 will work well in any of them also. So, personally, I wouldn't be upset. You still have one of the best types of batteries to use in your detector in my opinion.

The AW-2200 will provide the same benefits as the new HP 2900 but won't do it quite as long. Also, if you are like me, you will probably end up changing out the battery before the end of the day so having two Li Ion batteries is a smart move.

Now, I would like to explain why I am so up on using Li Ion batteries for my TDI SL, so here goes. Although I can't discuss the actual technical details of the SL and its design I can tell you that it has the capabilities of practically matching the regular TDI for depth if identical batteries are used. So, anything that keeps the voltage of the SL closer to that of the TDI, the closer the SL will be to matching the depth of the TDI.

The Li Ion battery packs only need 3 batteries to produce about 12V operating voltage. Thus, there are fewer batteries that could fail. Other more common NiMh or NiCad batteries takes 8 total and the voltage of those batteries quickly drops to 10V or less. So, the Li Ion has that voltage advantage over the NiMh or the NiCad. Also, keep in mind that the li Ion pack is lighter which is something else I like.

So, for people like me who want the maximum depth capabilities from their batteries, this type works very well. In other words, there are reasons besides a longer run time.

Reg

Thanks to all for your posts. It looks like there is to be no real gain so I guess leave it the way it is. Regards... Ronnie.

Generally speaking, the depth difference between the TDI and the SL is quite minimal if both are using new batteries and the SL is using new Alkalines. Remember, the Alkaline voltage is a little more than the rechargeable NiMh.

I suppose if one were to look at all signals with a scope one could determine the exact difference but that is difficult to do in real life because of so many other issues that can have an effect.

The Noise reduction circuitry can reduce the depth because of how it works. Think of the old squelch circuit on old CB radios. When the noise level was high, you could turn up the squelch and reduce noise but when you did, you couldn't talk as far either.

What I have noticed on both the TDI and SL is when the noise is higher, you lose depth because the signal gets lost in the noise on the TDI and on the SL, the noise reduction circuitry on the SL simply alters the bias such that the noise is reduced or eliminated along with the signal. So, both designs lose depth but you can hear why on the TDI and you can often hear a signal buried in the noise.

When there is little to no external noise then the SL adjusts for internal noise only created in the preamp. So, there is a slight reduction in signal from weak targets that gets eliminated along with the noise. On a TDI, you can hear these weak signals mixed in with the noise. Thus, the TDI can go a little deeper because of this aspect. As for the battery difference between the TDI and the SL, well, that can vary dramatically. Consider this, if the TDI has a fresh charge, the voltage is almost 16V and if the SL is about shot battery wise, the voltage is maybe a little over 8.5V. So, now we can have almost a double the voltage difference. Switch this around and you may have 12V on the TDI and 12.3V on the SL which could result in the SL matching the TDI if the Frequency control is set correctly on both machines.

As you can see, there really isn't any set depth difference between the two detectors because of the battery. However, as I mentioned the SL noise reduction design can cause the depth loss which is the result of eliminating the warble along with the weak signals that can be heard in the warble on the TDI. So, this can result in a slight depth loss. This has been measured to be up to a half inch to an inch depending upon the target size and its depth.

This may seem like a lot but when you compare depth loss because of GB setting or coil size, the noise reduction loss becomes something someone shouldn't worry that much about if at all.

So, the bottom line is, there is no exact or even average depth loss between the two types.

As for the RNB or suitable mod using li Ion batteries in the SL design, well, the voltage stays more stable and higher than with the Alkalines and NiMH types. Plus it runs longer when the higher rating batteries are used. So, I have found the RNB to be better. I have also built up my own li Ion battery packs that worked almost as well, so that is also an option. I don't recommend using LI polymer type batteries.

Reg

Some good info coming out here, thanks. What would be the best recommended RNB lithium battery pack for the Whites SPP. Where would be the best place for me to source these batteries from here in Oz?

Reg, You mention frequency adjustment on the whites PI machines. Apart from selecting a quiet operating freq. is there other benefits we can achieve from this adjustment on our TDI, SL & SPP's.

The Frequency adjustment doesn't change the frequency enough to make much difference outside of reducing noise. So, that is about all one can expect. However, it is far more important than most people realize in areas where there is a lot of emi. Out in the field away from emi sources, the Frequency adjustment isn't as critical since it can't adjust for internal noise.

To answer another question, always go for the maximum current capability when selecting RNB batteries for the SL or SPP. I think the 3100mah is the max now. The last time I checked with the owner of RNB he was using Panasonic Li Ion batteries, which are, in my opinion and others, considered to be the best. Figure about 200mah less than rated when trying to determine what you can expect. Panasonic has some test data out there on the net indicating this reduction on their new 3400mah batteries recently introduced by Panasonic.

Maybe in the near future we will see the new designs such as the batteries made with sugar that are supposed to be able to produce double the power capability of Li Ion batteries. What is confusing about this new design is it is stated they are refillable. I am not sure just what that means though.

Reg

Reg said:

The Frequency adjustment doesn't change the frequency enough to make much difference outside of reducing noise. So, that is about all one can expect. However, it is far more important than most people realize in areas where there is a lot of emi. Out in the field away from emi sources, the Frequency adjustment isn't as critical since it can't adjust for internal noise.

To answer another question, always go for the maximum current capability when selecting RNB batteries for the SL or SPP. I think the 3100mah is the max now. The last time I checked with the owner of RNB he was using Panasonic Li Ion batteries, which are, in my opinion and others, considered to be the best. Figure about 200mah less than rated when trying to determine what you can expect. Panasonic has some test data out there on the net indicating this reduction on their new 3400mah batteries recently introduced by Panasonic.

Maybe in the near future we will see the new designs such as the batteries made with sugar that are supposed to be able to produce double the power capability of Li Ion batteries. What is confusing about this new design is it is stated they are refillable. I am not sure just what that means though.

Reg

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Reg A while back I bought some Energizer 2650mah Batteries they should keep it going for a little longer shouldn't they ??, Other than that I thought about adding the 9th Battery that should bring the voltage up to around 12.1+ volts,

But it does not really matter because although the standard pack only gives you 5 or 6 hours if you swap them when you Re Fuel your self at Lunch time then you are good to go, and there is another Bonus about the Standard Pack NiMh pack and that is at leased you Can take it anywhere in the World, That makes it a TRUE ALL TERRAIN Detector,
The GPX is a Beautiful Rig But its just not Practical and how would you feel about losing you Battery at the AirPort Check In and at 6 to $800 a pop, That would really stuff your holiday and how Many Whites HD NiMh Packs could you buy and take with you for that kind of Dough, I'm thinking 6 to 8 and that's a possible 50 hrs plus,, Bottom line is if you change you Batteries when you take a break you wont have to stop searching.

Great Info Reg Thanks Mate.

G'day Folks, I have just seen A Wicked Battery Conversion that is easy and cheap to do, The Minimum voltage is 12.0 volts and the Maximum Voltage using the Batteries that I've got is 13.97625 Volts = 2650 mah, which is well below the safety margin, Giving you back the power bringing it back up to the TDI Pro Level and you can do this for about 30 or 40 bucks, You will here the difference in the Tone of the Machine in question,

Can someone tell me if I can post Links here ???

I am using a spp and I would like to see it thanks john

old hand said:

I am using a spp and I would like to see it thanks john

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OK Mate, here it is.

[video=480,360]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0frjkbrBhc[/video]

thank for that it looks good regards john

Thanks Ridgerunner, How long do you think the 2650mah will last in our SPP's?

Roscoe said:

Thanks Ridgerunner, How long do you think the 2650mah will last in our SPP's?

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G'day Mate, Well The TDI SL use's 0.460mah so the worst it could be is about 5.76 hours but seeing as you are getting that out of the standard battery +/- So you should get about 20% longer run Time which is around 7hrs
But because the spp use's a little less power you should get a little longer,

Hope this helps

Thanks mate, That would be plenty enough run time for me. Like you said, run them to lunch time and swap over with fresh pack. I had a look on the net and those AAA battery holders are cheap, just got to hot glue into place and solder wires. I have plenty of Eneloop AAA batteries at home or do you recommend a better brand for the purpose?