Unsealed 4x4 Australia's Dometic PLB-40 Review.

davent said:

If you were at a camp, and ran your fridge all day while you were away from. Your camp, can you leave a solar panel hooked up to it and charge while it while it is being used?

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Yes Dave and once it is full the fridge will run on the excess the panel produces,

Same as when you are driving, Plug the fridge in to the Rover or PLB and plug the Rover or PLB in to the Cars Ciggy Socket and then the Power pack will always stay at 100% and when the car is parked If the Car socket is Live all the Time the fridge will run off Both the Rover or PLB and the Car Battery at the same time so the lithium pack will stay at 100% for a heck of a long time,

Beacuse in effect say you have a 100Ah Battery in the car Plus the PLB = 40Ah you now have 90Ah just for the Fridge with 50Ah from the Cars battery plus the PLBs 40Ah., Thats a lot of power.

Taking the Car battery down to 50% is 50Ah and taking the PLB down to 80% = 32Ah thats 82Ah although the PLB can go Lower as can the Car battery but just going to the recommended % gives you 82Ah that depending on the Fridge Draw say 0.75Ah will run the fridge for 109+ Hours or over 4 and a half days, But just the PLB/Rover with a panel hooked up to the PLB throughout the day the PLB will last for ever using between 10 to 25% of the power at Night and being fully charged in an hour or so in the morning.

Remembering the Panel can produce say 6Ah per hour but the fridge is only using 0.5 to 1.0Ah.

condor22 said:

To the 70 AH Companion - It is not a LiFePo4 Lithium battery, it is NMC or Lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxides, usually stated as Li-NMC.

It is a different chemistry and this particular one gives a Lifecycle (LC) of 800 (or more), compared to the 2,000 (or more) of the Rover 40. Both give those LCs at 80% depth of cycle. The "or more" depends how deep you run them as RR shows in the above graph.

If you draw 32 AH (Rover at 80% over 2,000 cycles you have a total of 64,000 AH of power.
If you draw 56 AH (70 PB at 80% over 800 cycles you have a total of 44,800 AH of power.

Over their respective LC, you get a lot more bang for your buck with the Rover. Look at the difference in cost and without calculating, the Rover is a cheaper cost per AH of power than the 70 amp powerbank.

I would next suggest, that if you need 70 AH of battery, it is a cheaper prospect to buy a 100 AH LiFePo4 similar to what I did for around the same price as the 70 and buy a battery box.

You get 30 AH more and in the case of mine 4,000 LC. (Quick calc at 80% is 320,000 AH of power, or 14 times more for your $.

If you want convenience for a few days camping either the PLB or Rover will do the job. However, if you want some inverter use or long term power, a bigger set up is needed and will likely include a mix of recharging options, DC-DC and Solar.

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What is considered a Lifecycle though condor22? is it every time you charge the battery when it is halway flat or fully flat?

Simply put - 1 Cycle is rated by a manufacturer, both Dometic PLB40 and Rover 40 state 2,000 cycles @ 80% use. So, yes, in the case of both these units, 1 cycle is use 32AH, then recharge.

If a battery is connected to a solar panel or other charger whilst being used and its use is less than what is being recharged, then it is not cycling.

However, if you read post #12 from RR in this thread, the graph shows that if you draw less than 80% i.e less than 10 amps from 40AH @ 15% depth between charging, then you might get 8000 cycles.

Conversely if you flatten it between charges each time, then significantly less than 2000 cycles.

A good example of "Abuse it, you lose it"

Here are the results of my 2nd test with the power meter. Similar conditions. The Rover showed 67% left, which is 1% more than the first test, so pretty much consistent.
This equates to 13.2 AH on the Rover Display.

My power meter showed a net use over 24 hrs of 11.47 AH, which I believe to be more accurate. Therefore what the Rover shows is slightly more use than actual.

Legend p = peak, m = minimum.

Vm = 12.94 (under load)
Vp = 13.62
Am = 0.06
Ap = 3.51

Battery V at end was 13.13 no load.

I'm impressed.

condor22 said:

Simply put - 1 Cycle is rated by a manufacturer, both Dometic PLB40 and Rover 40 state 2,000 cycles @ 80% use. So, yes, in the case of both these units, 1 cycle is use 32AH, then recharge.

If a battery is connected to a solar panel or other charger whilst being used and its use is less than what is being recharged, then it is not cycling.

However, if you read post #12 from RR in this thread, the graph shows that if you draw less than 80% i.e less than 10 amps from 40AH @ 15% depth between charging, then you might get 8000 cycles.

Conversely if you flatten it between charges each time, then significantly less than 2000 cycles.

A good example of "Abuse it, you lose it"

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Classic example was a couple of weeks ago I went on a Road trip and I ran one of the PLB's down to 33% SOC having used 67% And by looking at that Chart I am going to get somewhere between 2500 and 4500 cycles, I ran the little fridge locked in the Van where the Temps reached 43.4*c for 26.5 hours, Although I am not happy about that because I should of left it hooked up to the Cigar socket and it would of stayed at 100%,

Before that I have only used it down to 49% SOC from memory, But If we say that I now have 3500 cycles left in that PLB according to that chart That was a One Off Situation where as I normally take 2 or 3 days to take the SOC down, That 3500 cycles is equal to 10,500 Days if done constantly

That 10,500 days is Equal to 28 .76 years of Constant Use or 28years 9 months,

But if we look at it another way In Theory we cycle it for the same 3 days but we only do that every 2 weeks on our weekend off So now we have 14 days + 3 days = 17 days , Take the 3500 cycles and multiply that by 17 = 59,500 days / 365 days = 163.01 Years And according to The Lithium Battery Rules it will only drop 20% of it's capacity still leaving you 80% of it's capacity to play with so unlike Lead Acid or AGM it is still going to be able to do it's Job and none of us have the equipment to measure of even notice that 20% Loss.

Even if you have used all your factory 2000 cycles and you have lost that 20% the 80% remaining is still going to keep working for Decades

These long term figures might seem off the planet But Lithium batteries were invented in the late 70's early 80's and in 40 odd years they have still not worked out how long their life cycles are So all of the above is "Could / Might" be possible, One thing for sure If you buy one at the Age of 40 you won't be buying another one for a long while If at all.

But what ever the cycles I have left from going down to 33% SOC has not effected my 2000 cycles and at 3 days per cycle thats 6000 days, Which Is equal to 16.43 years.

So the cost of the Rover @ $559.00 / by 16.4 years = $34.04c per year X 5 years = $170.42c.

Now do the same maths on the Cost of a Good 80/120Ah AGM which would equal the Rover with a life span of around 5 years Vs the cost per year and the overall cost, These Lithium packs work out cheaper and then when you factor in that they come with the Built In DC ot DC Chargers and the multiple charging options and no more wiring and the weight saving and space saving and it's portable.,

I ordered mine on the 26th Nov 2019 and have been running mine every so often ever since, and when I compare the monthly maintainence I am having to do with my AGM and my 3 Deep Cycle batteries which is costing money to do each month the cost is never ending, what a PIA.

These packs are Awesome. erfect:

condor22 said:

Here are the results of my 2nd test with the power meter. Similar conditions. The Rover showed 67% left, which is 1% more than the first test, so pretty much consistent.
This equates to 13.2 AH on the Rover Display.

My power meter showed a net use over 24 hrs of 11.47 AH, which I believe to be more accurate. Therefore what the Rover shows is slightly more use than actual.

Legend p = peak, m = minimum.

Vm = 12.94 (under load)
Vp = 13.62
Am = 0.06
Ap = 3.51

Battery V at end was 13.13 no load.

I'm impressed.

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Yeah that is impressive, Sometimes I doubt whether buying the second PLB was a wise move except when I have to power 2 fridges but it is great having a backup plan although one PLB can power 2 fridges at once, Using the Rover/PLB is about as painful as pluging in your Cell Phone, It requires zero brain activity yet it goes about it's job unnoticed and hastle free.

Oh and If you are using one of these meters they use 0.05Ah to power them selves So your Ah reading for the Appliance is correct but the overall power taken from the battery needs to be multiplied by 1.05, so IE the meter reads 12.5Ah to power the fridge the actual power consummed would be 13.125Ah allowing for what the meter used,

Just thought I'd let folks know, :Y:

A very quick question for you RR if you had the Campion Rover 40 and the Campion 120w solar panels which PWM would you use as both items have them?
thanks db

deepblue said:

A very quick question for you RR if you had the Campion Rover 40 and the Campion 120w solar panels which PWN would you use as both items have them?
thanks db

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I would not use the PWM because I am pretty sure that the Rover has a Built In DC to DC charger so I would plug the Panel direct in to the Rover and let it take care of things,

You only need to use a PWM/MPPT controller if you are pluging the panel in to the Rover's AC input socket. which would be a waste of Available solar power, The PWM is only supplied to power and charge other items Not the Rover. Such as phones, Lead Acid batteries, Laptops etc.

According to the Specs the Rover has a built in MPPT Controller/DC to DC Charger so Only hook the Panel Directly in to the Rover NOT using the Panels PVM at all and it will charge Faster and won't waste any solar power.

Maybe Condor22 can shine some light on it coz he has the Rover at hand,

Hope that helps, :Y:

Cheers mate that's what I thought :Y:

Correct there is an inbuilt MPPT reg. My problem is that the panels on my van and the one on the car are regulated via their respective controllers.

The concertina panel also has a regulator and it's wiring is potted into the regulator, so not able to be modified. There is a small fly lead coming out of the panel with a 2 pin waterproof 2 pin connector, 2 M of lead then to that regulator. Its output then goes to an Anderson.

What I need to do is get hold of a spare plug from my mate and wire up a lead to an Anderson plug i.e. a second lead.

If I can't get one then I'll visit Jaycar and replace the original with something different and use the same connector for the extra non regulated lead.

I charged my Rover 40 battery from the Companion Solar Charger today. It worked a treat. The Rover does have an inbuilt regulator so you go direct from the blanket to the battery. The Rover instructions are very clear to do it this way.
Cheers

condor22 said:

Correct there is an inbuilt MPPT reg. My problem is that the panels on my van and the one on the car are regulated via their respective controllers.

The concertina panel also has a regulator and it's wiring is potted into the regulator, so not able to be modified. There is a small fly lead coming out of the panel with a 2 pin waterproof 2 pin connector, 2 M of lead then to that regulator. Its output then goes to an Anderson.

What I need to do is get hold of a spare plug from my mate and wire up a lead to an Anderson plug i.e. a second lead.

If I can't get one then I'll visit Jaycar and replace the original with something different and use the same connector for the extra non regulated lead.

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Yeah So I could run direct from any Panel to the PLB using it's 50A Anderson socket to charge from a DC source so I made up a H/D Lead with MC4's on One end and a 50A Anderson on the other so I could use any panel and on Cloudy days I can run 2x 150w panels if needed, Or I can run one of those Watt meters in the line so I can see what the actual input is, :Y:

Edit:- I also bought a pair of 2 in to 1 leads for the MC4's so I can split panels or Add them, that could work for you ??

Dignit said:

I charged my Rover 40 battery from the Companion Solar Charger today. It worked a treat. The Rover does have an inbuilt regulator so you go direct from the blanket to the battery. The Rover instructions are very clear to do it this way.
Cheers

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Awesome Well Done, :Y: :beer:

Hey Condor22 I read on Snowys web site that the 70 AH Companion model doesn't reach full recharge unless it is charged by 240v AC have you heard anything about this problem?
cheers db

It is not a problem or a design fault, The make it do that so when you plug it in to your Cars Ciggy Socket it does not Drain the Car Battery, Thats a good feature on the larger models,

the smaller 40/512Wh and 55Ah/704Wh models on the market charge to 100%, The 70Ah/896Wh has the capacity of a 140Ah Lead Acid or AGM @ 50% SOC, So charging anything that big from the car battery would kill the Car battery, Because most vehicles have an 80 to 100Ah and the safety factor for them would be 40AH and 50Ah so taking 70Ah from them would kill them.

So that is a safety feature on the larger models, Ok. :Y:

what he said, lol

However, it also depends on your vehicle when charging or running devices, why, lol. My front cig socket is IGN controlled, engine off, cig skt off. However I have heard some vehicles that have a socket in the rear are always live regardless of the IGN being on or off. This is where you will have the problem of possibly flattening the start battery.

Yes I have an auxiliary battery and for those that do, this is where I will try charging the Rover from in my vehicle. It has a DC-DC charger and solar, neither are electrically connected to the start battery when the IGN is off.

I'm reluctant to use my vehicle alternator direct to a cig skt as it regularly outputs 14.9 amps and the alternator can put out a lot more than the 5 amp charge rate. The Rover has an inbuilt battery management system which should regulate the input. Similarly, although the manual states using a 120W panel to get 5 amps, my 110W on a good day exceeds 6 amps.

If I'm driving, the Redarc DC-DC sits at a more constant and lower voltage. The Rover charging specs are;

Solar Input 18-20V 5A - What happens if the voltage is exceeded?
DC Charger 14V 5A - Same Q as above and lower than my vehicle voltage?
AC Charger 16.8V 5A - A much higher voltage than DC?

Plus - what occurs if in any of these charge modes the amps are higher? Will it charge from another battery i.e. AGM at below 13V? Possibly, albeit much slower.

Might look at posing those Qs to Companion, if I can find a contact, stay tuned.

Just checked the 240 VAC power supply for the Rover, it states 240VAC @ 2.0A max. About 480W max, which given the charge time is not viable from an inverter.

I am reasonably confident that inbuilt BMS will accommodate any excess in volts or amps from DC sources and Solar.

Just checked, they have an online contact form, so I'll pen a few Qs to them in the next day or two.

condor22 said:

what he said, lol

Plus - what occurs if in any of these charge modes the amps are higher? Will it charge from another battery i.e. AGM at below 13V? Possibly, albeit much slower.

Might look at posing those Qs to Companion, if I can find a contact, stay tuned.

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Be it a differant brand this is the one my brother bought, But the info is applicable as a guide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUVlCecoy0Y

Thanks guys the reason I asked the question was that even if you had a larger capacity of input solar ( bigger panels) DC amps the unit wouldn't allow it to be fully charged.
It would still be internally limited thru the inbuilt electronics. Also what is the level of charge that the unit will attain when charge thru the DC option as apposed to AC.
This will change the life cycles of the unit. I did notice this was only referenced to this unit.
Cheers db

deepblue said:

Thanks guys the reason I asked the question was that even if you had a larger capacity of input solar ( bigger panels) DC amps the unit wouldn't allow it to be fully charged.
It would still be internally limited thru the inbuilt electronics. Also what is the level of charge that the unit will attain when charge thru the DC option as apposed to AC.
This will change the life cycles of the unit. I did notice this was only referenced to this unit.
Cheers db

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If you are charging it by Solar then it should reach 100% because it will sense that there is over 18v+ going in to it where as if it was being charged from a Ciggy socket then the most voltage it will see with the engine running is about 13.6 to 14.6v and that is not enough to trigger it's software to charge to 100%,

If you are using a larger capacity of Solar the MPPT will cut that Back so the unit is Charging at it's absolute maximum, If they recommend a 100w panel it would be safe to use a 120w or if they say use a 120w a 150w would be fine and it would be prefect for use on cloudy days,

My PLB says 120w but I can hook 2 X 100w or 2 X 120w panels in series for real cloudy days and the MPPT/DC to DC inbuilt Charger will adjust it's self to suit. These things are well Spec'd and they have a lot of Leeway within those specs,

And NO it will have Zero effect on the life cycles because it is adjusting the charge rate to suit the Input supply Not the Power drain and it is the power drain % you inflict on the battery that dictates the amount of Cycles. So the charge rate has Zero effect on the amount of life Cycles.

The Input Charge rate only really has an effect on Lead Acid or AGM and Gel Cells.

Bottom line is these are the most simple painless thing you will ever use So don't try to over think it because they have absolutely thought of everything, :Y: