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#1

Fossilon
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Joined: 26 August 2019
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31 August 2019 12:31 am

1567172043_ac9626b4-1e02-4aa6-97e7-bcbdec74e421.jpgAmongst dozens of fossils recently found in the surrounding of Mt Dandenong, one of Victoria’s ancient dormant volcanos seems to have well preserved stone fossils mostly small ( baby ) sea creatures including a croc and frog on a recent post and now I have cleaned up a fossil that resembles a small possible Jaw with teeth and a tongue ( pointing downward)
I have edited the image using a basic photo editing app to highlight its features using filters on an iPhone XR but no false colours used, also a normal image without editing at all.
Any clues/help on this?1567171799_52be64f6-ff0e-442b-b394-011cb3bd725a.jpg
1567171799_2331aff0-c82b-4d37-ae82-5bdb99ffa81b.jpg

Last edited by Fossilon (31 August 2019 12:37 am)

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#2

goldierocks
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31 August 2019 09:29 am

I am a bit doubtful about these, and particularly about this one. Take them to Melbourne museum, people like Tom Rich - they are great and will help.

It is very unusual to preserve soft parts of animals (eg a tongue).


Robert Benchley...
I have kleptomania, but when it gets bad, I take something for it.

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#3

Fossilon
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31 August 2019 10:20 am

goldierocks wrote:

I am a bit doubtful about these, and particularly about this one. Take them to Melbourne museum, people like Tom Rich - they are great and will help.

It is very unusual to preserve soft parts of animals (eg a tongue).

Yes I have heard of that the soft tissue is rare!
I will take your advice, thanks for the feedback
cheers

#4

Gimp
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Joined: 25 September 2018
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01 September 2019 08:22 am

I think you might have missed basic geology at school. Ancient dormant volcanoes do not produce fossils. You need deposition not volcanism

#5

Gimp
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01 September 2019 08:25 am

Seeking amateur opinions on here is only falsely stroking your incorrect ideas

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#6

goldierocks
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01 September 2019 09:53 am

Gimp wrote:

I think you might have missed basic geology at school. Ancient dormant volcanoes do not produce fossils. You need deposition not volcanism

Gimp, it is not quite that simple. The volcanoes do not PRODUCE fossils but volcanic activity can preserve fossils - so volcanic rocks and fossils are closely related. Fluid lavas are only one type of volcanic rock. Tuff (the fine volcanic silica "ash" blown into the air by volcanoes) falls on animals and plants and buries them - think of the human fossils at Pompei and Herculaneum. Mud flows, caused by the release of water and liquification of volcanic products like tuff sweep down mountainsides and bury everything in their path, a common problem in places like Indonesia and the Philippines - this also occurred at Mt St Helens. The volcanic rocks of the Dandenong Ranges are mostly not lavas but are welded tuffs (tiny shards of volcanic glass that was still hot and plastic when it settled out of the air, so the shards welded together as they accumulated, forming a hard rock. Streams flow in the intervals between each volcanic eruption, depositing sand, gravel and clay with dead animals and plants - thin layers of the resulting sandstone, conglomerate and shale then occur between thicker layers of welded tuff and lavas, as in the Dandenongs and nearby volcanic complexes. And fossils ARE associated with them - fossil fish and plants are the most common (e.g. Briagolong, Mansfield, where I used to collect them1567292997_vic_fish_fossils.jpg).

However I am a but sceptical about the interpretation of these examples as fossils, but one needs to see more than just photos - hence my advice to take them to Melbourne Museum. I have mates who specialise in this (mainly dinosaurs and megafauna). IF they are fossils, they probably relate to post-volcanic streams and lakes that postdate the volcanics though, the volcanics there are Late Devonian and these species would probably be younger (but I am no expert).

1567293039_vic_fish_fossils.jpg

Last edited by goldierocks (01 September 2019 10:11 am)


Robert Benchley...
I have kleptomania, but when it gets bad, I take something for it.

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#7

NuggetGod
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Joined: 18 August 2019
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01 September 2019 11:08 am

Interesting stuff ops Maybe get someone to properly identify it and let us know!

#8

Deepseeker
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01 September 2019 11:50 am

You definitely know your stuff Goldierocks. I used to live up in the Dandenongs many years ago in a house I built with my ex-wife in Olinda.
After we divorced, the property was put on the market and I started looking around for something smaller to live in around the same area.
I came across this cute little two bedroom cottage, hanging off the steep side of the mountain in Kalorama, with over 180 degree views from Port Phillip bay, through the city and all the way around to the distant Warbuton ranges.

For those of you that aren't familiar with the Dandenongs, Kalorama is adjacent to the tip of Mt Dandenong on it's steep NW slope.
I had the deposit on it and was just waiting for the conveyancer to do her bit, when she got back to me with a hair raising report.

The block had the highest classification for land slip, that made it impossible to ever extend in any direction (which was my intention). It was built in the 1920's long before anybody cared about planning codes and land slip classifications.

She also came across a report from the late 1800's which showed that there was an exceptionally high rainfall one year where it rained full-on for days and days straight without letting up. One day, the whole side of the mountain just slipped away, taking everything with it including the large gum trees. On the way down it buried a house, where fortunately at the time nobody was home. From memory, other than native wildlife the only stock loss was a horse that happened to be in its path.

That steep slope you see around that area is the side of the extinct volcano, made up of it's loosely compacted ash. I suspect many such fossils have been made this way over the millenia, as well as by the volcanic ash while the volcano is still active.

As a Footnote- The vendors lawyers said I couldn't get out of a signed contract disputing a section 32, but i put it back on the Real Estate Agents selling the property for breaching the Trade Practices act of the time. I had their printed brochure for the house, where they had clearly stated that you could extend anyway you wanted, no STCA mentioned. The agent said the vendor never told them, the vendor said his lawyers didn't know, I said they could all get stuffed as I wasn't going to settle.
This Mexican stand-off eventually ended with all in agreement that I wasn't going to buy it. Bottom line- There are still lot's of dead critters getting fossilized in the Dandenongs awful

Last edited by Deepseeker (01 September 2019 11:54 am)


Try hard not to offend. Try even harder not to be offended.

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#9

goldierocks
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01 September 2019 12:14 pm

i.e. "near where the township of Olinda is today, a series of volcanic eruptions pushed up through the earth's crust during the Late Devonian period. At Olinda, there were four distinct lava flows that went in four different directions. The eruptions deposited thick sheets of ignimbrites (the word 'ignimbrites' comes from a Latin mash-up for 'fiery rock dust cloud') that hardened and formed the mountain range".1567300975_shards.jpg
This is what the volcanic rocks of the Dandenongs often look like under the microscope. You can see the angular pieces of glass that settled out of the air as a dust cloud. The glass was still hot and sticky when it landed, so the fragments tended to fuse together. The resuling "ignimbrite" is a hard rock now, that many people would confuse with a rock formed from molten lava (unless they had a microscope).

Here are some shots from the Mt Pinatubo eruption of 1991 showing the ash cloud that settled to form ignimbrite and tuff (you can see that this cloud, 150 km across) would have formed most of the volcanic rocks, lavas only being minor and present close to the eruption point. The second photo shows a mud flow that roared down a valley as water was released.

https://www.livescience.com/14476-photo … ption.html

1567301462_mt_pinatubo_1.jpg
1567301462_mt_pinatubo_2.jpg

Last edited by goldierocks (01 September 2019 12:31 pm)


Robert Benchley...
I have kleptomania, but when it gets bad, I take something for it.

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#10

Fossilon
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Joined: 26 August 2019
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03 September 2019 04:26 pm

Gimp wrote:

Seeking amateur opinions on here is only falsely stroking your incorrect ideas

I think a lot of input here are only guessing so yes need someone with knowledge

#11

Martyz
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Joined: 02 January 2019
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03 September 2019 06:36 pm

Hi Fossilon. The responses to your posts are based on incomplete evidence so they can be considered opinion and are, in part, probably only meant to be that. That does not mean you are being given amateur opinions.
It’s great that you’re sharing your finds and I’m looking forward to learning more.

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#12

Ded Driver
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From: West of the Border, WA
Joined: 27 May 2018
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03 September 2019 11:13 pm

Australia doesn't have any actual 'Dormant Volcanos'.
All volcanos in Au are extinct.


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#13

goldierocks
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04 September 2019 09:29 am

Martyz wrote:

Hi Fossilon. The responses to your posts are based on incomplete evidence so they can be considered opinion and are, in part, probably only meant to be that. That does not mean you are being given amateur opinions.
It’s great that you’re sharing your finds and I’m looking forward to learning more.

Yep - get them into the museum as I am sure there are many here that would like a definitive answer from experts.


Robert Benchley...
I have kleptomania, but when it gets bad, I take something for it.

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#14

goldierocks
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04 September 2019 09:58 am

Ded Driver wrote:

Australia doesn't have any actual 'Dormant Volcanos'.
All volcanos in Au are extinct.

Not so (strictly). Australia has active volcanoes on Heard and McDonald Islands. Aborigines witnessed active volcanoes in South Australia and Victoria only a few thousand years ago, and that volcanism is not over. We still have molten magma in magma chambers under Bass Strait, and it is likely that they will erupt some time in the future. "Davies said the plume is now placed under the Bass Strait, which lies between Victoria and Tasmania". "Geologists suspect an earthquake that originated 50 kilometres from King Island in February 2002 signalled the reawakening of the hot spot - this is known as the East Australian Hotspot"

1567551478_volcanic_risk_vic.jpg

1567551509_bass_strait_hotspot.jpg

https://www.volcanodiscovery.com/heard.html

https://www.volcanodiscovery.com/mcdonald-islands.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ … -australia

https://www.standard.net.au/story/32355 … nevitable/

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/nation … -fwxm.html

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/there-s-a-v … -melbourne


Robert Benchley...
I have kleptomania, but when it gets bad, I take something for it.

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#15

Gimp
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Joined: 25 September 2018
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04 September 2019 11:47 pm

goldierocks wrote:
Gimp wrote:

I think you might have missed basic geology at school. Ancient dormant volcanoes do not produce fossils. You need deposition not volcanism

Gimp, it is not quite that simple. The volcanoes do not PRODUCE fossils but volcanic activity can preserve fossils - so volcanic rocks and fossils are closely related. Fluid lavas are only one type of volcanic rock. Tuff (the fine volcanic silica "ash" blown into the air by volcanoes) falls on animals and plants and buries them - think of the human fossils at Pompei and Herculaneum. Mud flows, caused by the release of water and liquification of volcanic products like tuff sweep down mountainsides and bury everything in their path, a common problem in places like Indonesia and the Philippines - this also occurred at Mt St Helens. The volcanic rocks of the Dandenong Ranges are mostly not lavas but are welded tuffs (tiny shards of volcanic glass that was still hot and plastic when it settled out of the air, so the shards welded together as they accumulated, forming a hard rock. Streams flow in the intervals between each volcanic eruption, depositing sand, gravel and clay with dead animals and plants - thin layers of the resulting sandstone, conglomerate and shale then occur between thicker layers of welded tuff and lavas, as in the Dandenongs and nearby volcanic complexes. And fossils ARE associated with them - fossil fish and plants are the most common (e.g. Briagolong, Mansfield, where I used to collect themhttps://www.prospectingaustralia.com.au/forum/img/member-images/4386/1567292997_vic_fish_fossils.jpg).

However I am a but sceptical about the interpretation of these examples as fossils, but one needs to see more than just photos - hence my advice to take them to Melbourne Museum. I have mates who specialise in this (mainly dinosaurs and megafauna). IF they are fossils, they probably relate to post-volcanic streams and lakes that postdate the volcanics though, the volcanics there are Late Devonian and these species would probably be younger (but I am no expert).

https://www.prospectingaustralia.com.au … ossils.jpg

All true but no connection with ops finds. Devion fishes are a long way geologically from frogs, crocodiles and even further from hominids.

#16

Ded Driver
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From: West of the Border, WA
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05 September 2019 12:09 am

yes Goldierocks I know about the volcanoes on Heard & McDonald Islands. I was being more specific to the mainland. New Zealand's active volcanoes are also geographically close.
My understanding of a dormant volcano is one which has a hot magma chamber underneath it, potentially active & able to erupt.
This bit from Volcano Discovery <A dormant volcano is an active volcano that is not erupting, but supposed to erupt again. An extinct volcano has not had an eruption for at least 10,000 years and is not expected to erupt again in a comparable time scale of the future.>
But I stand corrected if what you say about volcanoes in South Australia and Victoria only a few thousand years ago is correct. I haven't heard of that. Has this been documented anywhere, ie with sample analysis by a research body/volcanologist group? I would be interested in reading more about it.
It does sound to me tho' that if the magma plume lies deep beneath Bass Strait, then the volcanoes back on the mainland are probably extinct. Any new eruptions would most likely occur in the Strait.
Volcanoes do intrigue me


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#17

grubstake
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05 September 2019 01:00 am

There's a dormant volcano sleeping under Melbourne - and it could erupt at any moment:
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/there-s-a-v … -melbourne

Volcanoes of Australia:
http://www.volcanolive.com/australia.html

Volcanic Victoria:
https://www.australiangeographic.com.au … -victoria/

"the whole province is volcanically active and the new one could literally be anywhere, but the most likely place will be between Ballarat and Geelong.

Last edited by grubstake (05 September 2019 01:05 am)


Where it is, there it is.

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#18

Ded Driver
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05 September 2019 01:34 am

I never trust what I read in the media. They have a habit of adding fertiliser ( poop ) to make it seem bigger, scarier & about to happen to everyone.
So as Goldierocks pointed out, there is a hot spot under the Bass Strait, but the likelihood of it rising to the surface & erupting tonight, or tomorrow, or any time very soon, is very unlikely.
.
But .... lets just hope Melbourne doesn't look Pompei next week skull playful


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#19

goldierocks
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Joined: 10 January 2015
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05 September 2019 09:04 am

Ded Driver wrote:

I never trust what I read in the media. They have a habit of adding fertiliser ( poop ) to make it seem bigger, scarier & about to happen to everyone.
So as Goldierocks pointed out, there is a hot spot under the Bass Strait, but the likelihood of it rising to the surface & erupting tonight, or tomorrow, or any time very soon, is very unlikely.
.
But .... lets just hope Melbourne doesn't look Pompei next week skull playful

Yes, I would not hold your breathe.....


Robert Benchley...
I have kleptomania, but when it gets bad, I take something for it.

#20

Fossilon
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Joined: 26 August 2019
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05 September 2019 12:52 pm

goldierocks wrote:
Ded Driver wrote:

I never trust what I read in the media. They have a habit of adding fertiliser ( poop ) to make it seem bigger, scarier & about to happen to everyone.
So as Goldierocks pointed out, there is a hot spot under the Bass Strait, but the likelihood of it rising to the surface & erupting tonight, or tomorrow, or any time very soon, is very unlikely.
.
But .... lets just hope Melbourne doesn't look Pompei next week skull playful

Yes, I would not hold your breathe.....

Earth has evolved over millions of years so you can never say never ( or unlikely)
But yes I know where your coming from

#21

Fossilon
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Joined: 26 August 2019
Posts: 26
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05 September 2019 12:58 pm

grubstake wrote:

There's a dormant volcano sleeping under Melbourne - and it could erupt at any moment:
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/there-s-a-v … -melbourne

Volcanoes of Australia:
http://www.volcanolive.com/australia.html

Volcanic Victoria:
https://www.australiangeographic.com.au … -victoria/

"the whole province is volcanically active and the new one could literally be anywhere, but the most likely place will be between Ballarat and Geelong.

If the sun is going into a GSM and as the earths poles are currently flipping and old volcanos aré erupting world wide and in our life time we can only go by our ancient ancestors tablets and cave paintings we can only wait and see

Last edited by Fossilon (05 September 2019 12:59 pm)

#22

LoneWolf
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From: Gold Coast, QLD
Joined: 12 April 2016
Posts: 3,175
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05 September 2019 01:24 pm

I think We have more chance of an Earthquake than a Volcanic eruption... West of Broom has been going off for ages...
1567650206_australia.jpg

LW...


Growing Old is Inevitable.... Growing Up is Optional.... Prospectors United Will Never Be Defeated

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#23

goldierocks
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Joined: 10 January 2015
Posts: 1,806
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07 September 2019 09:56 pm

Fossilon wrote:
grubstake wrote:

There's a dormant volcano sleeping under Melbourne - and it could erupt at any moment:
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/there-s-a-v … -melbourne

Volcanoes of Australia:
http://www.volcanolive.com/australia.html

Volcanic Victoria:
https://www.australiangeographic.com.au … -victoria/

"the whole province is volcanically active and the new one could literally be anywhere, but the most likely place will be between Ballarat and Geelong.

If the sun is going into a GSM and as the earths poles are currently flipping and old volcanos aré erupting world wide and in our life time we can only go by our ancient ancestors tablets and cave paintings we can only wait and see

You are relating things that are mostly unrelated - different causes. No significant change in volcanic activity either.


Robert Benchley...
I have kleptomania, but when it gets bad, I take something for it.

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#24

goldierocks
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Joined: 10 January 2015
Posts: 1,806
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07 September 2019 10:04 pm

Ded Driver wrote:

yes Goldierocks I know about the volcanoes on Heard & McDonald Islands. I was being more specific to the mainland. New Zealand's active volcanoes are also geographically close.
My understanding of a dormant volcano is one which has a hot magma chamber underneath it, potentially active & able to erupt.
This bit from Volcano Discovery <A dormant volcano is an active volcano that is not erupting, but supposed to erupt again. An extinct volcano has not had an eruption for at least 10,000 years and is not expected to erupt again in a comparable time scale of the future.>
But I stand corrected if what you say about volcanoes in South Australia and Victoria only a few thousand years ago is correct. I haven't heard of that. Has this been documented anywhere, ie with sample analysis by a research body/volcanologist group? I would be interested in reading more about it.
It does sound to me tho' that if the magma plume lies deep beneath Bass Strait, then the volcanoes back on the mainland are probably extinct. Any new eruptions would most likely occur in the Strait.
Volcanoes do intrigue me

Yes, it is reliable - the most recent are definitely not older than about 5,000 years. I don't have the references handy. Bernie Joyce would be the Victorian expert, Ray Cas the Australian expert (quoted above and quoted accurately). I know them both and have had discussions with them. Bass Strait is the most likely, but on-land in Victoria or Queensland are possible. There is not really a single "plume" in the upper crust, only deeper, it can spread out and pop up at surface over a wide area. Details from my memory only, but I think the Bass Strait magma body has been verified b y seismic work (P seismic waves pass through liquid, S waves do not, and since magma is liquid we can map out magma bodies in the subsurface.


Robert Benchley...
I have kleptomania, but when it gets bad, I take something for it.

#25

Wally69
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From: Sydney
Joined: 13 December 2013
Posts: 3,298
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07 September 2019 10:19 pm

If you get to the end of the week and haven’t hear a good rumour..........it’s time to start one

1567854474_b9218d91-8d8a-4164-ada5-d95f7d994bdc.jpg

Incidentally, I sat on an international flight next to a volcanologist who was studying the Victorian region and I took away, in my geological timeline terms that Victorian volcanic activity is almost as fresh as a steaming turd and slightly constipated. Having studied intra-plate earthquake history going back 2500 years, thanks to Chinese imperial records....... it was an interesting conversation.

Conclusion: there are lots of moving parts and physical influences upon this planet

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