Reply to Christian

Actually, I think I'm perhaps a bit less worried now I've seen that video. I see the limiting factor in that design - you can't do what that particular machine does using precious natural stones. You would end up destroying half of them.

You just can't afford to sacrifice that much carat weight of say, natural sapphire. There are not really any two natural stones that are exactly alike in size, shape and cutting and polishing features- load 50 nice natural sapphires into that and you would end up creating maybe $10 000 or $20 000 or more bucks worth of swarf. I think you would need one individual automated cutting station per indivdual stone, each one programmed to cut an individual design to suit each stone at one time - that would significantly crimp output potential. I still think it would be faster and cheaper than a human but not nearly as much as the machine in the video.

I can still imagine a bunch of small automated cutting stations all linked to a computer, each one doing it's own thing with the computer multitasking to run all of them - but it's hard to see how that would not increase costs, making it less desirable.

Maybe I will catch a bit of a break there. On the strength of that, I think I'll grab another beer :beer:

Hehehe and there you have me around the corner lol

Automatic Faceting
Automatic Polishing
Automatic Dopping
Automatic Lap Changer
Automatic Measuring

The only thing thats not automatic is placing the stone once on the stick and looking for bad polish, this will also done by eye. Oh i forgot to put some glu on the second stick hehehe

Dont worries, all these machines can be compared with an professional cnc milling machine and then a lot harder to setup and use! But also then, those you have seen are for mass production (speed) and wont tip on the hand cutted stones. Want to see it for yourself?! Go to your jewelry store and take a look of the cutted stones. you'll see the poor quality of those automatic cutted stones.

So dont mess your mind about automatic cutting...

On the other hand my machine is a bit different... and is not made for speed cutting! And each stone will be threated seperately.

99.9% of the automatic faceting machines are made for production/speed cuts.
0.1% of the automatic faceting machines are made for percission! All these machines are over the $100k - $1000k in price (as also mine)

Just some facts...

Christian

Lefty said:

I think you would need one individual automated cutting station per indivdual stone, each one programmed to cut an individual design to suit each stone at one time - that would significantly crimp output potential. I still think it would be faster and cheaper than a human but not nearly as much as the machine in the video.

I can still imagine a bunch of small automated cutting stations all linked to a computer, each one doing it's own thing with the computer multitasking to run all of them - but it's hard to see how that would not increase costs, making it less desirable.

Click to expand...

That's what I'm saying. The maths don't work with the cost of that type of machine. It's more profitable to pay a school kid a cheese sandwich to cut the stone than to pay for the maintenance and investment costs on a $100K machine and risk the machine ruining a $10K stone.
Yes it will get cheaper but not any day soon.
The diamond market will collapse before that with created diamond prices becoming lower as it becomes easier to make of a good size.

These automatic mass producing machines have been around for some time now. Jang is quite well known.

Oh i forgot to put some glu on the second stick tongue hehehe

Click to expand...

Can't the dops be dipped automatically in to UV reactive glue? layful:

Want to see it for yourself?! Go to your jewelry store and take a look of the cutted stones. you'll see the poor quality of those automatic cutted stones.

Click to expand...

Yes, I've often closely examined stones in jewellery in the window of retail chain jewellery stores and many of the "stones" are pretty crappy - badly missed meets, poor polish etc.

It appears that I might have had the dumb luck to be in a niche that is likely to be difficult to automate to scale for the forseeable future. The main stumbling block to anything resembling "small-scale mass-production" of faceted natural precious and semi-precious stones as far as I can see is that there is no way to control the shape of the rough that comes out of the ground. I might be able to order 100 perfectly identical machined cubes or cylinders of steel or aluminium for manufacturing something else but there is no way to do that with most natural stones - they come out of the ground very irregular in shape. Additionally, they often have an element of unpredictability to their cutting and polishing characteristics, even among individual stones of the same type. They were formed in the chaos of natural geological processes and cannot be counted on to posses the relative consistency of synthetics. They are what they are and there is no changing them.

I guess it ultimately might be possible to to have that rack of stones made up of independently moving dops, each controlled by a master computer with each one being cut to it's own individual design on the same lap - but even then that seems like a bit of a logistical nightmare to implement (areas of differing hardness within the same stone, different stones having to be cut at different angles at the same time etc)

I would still hate to do what the guy in that video does all day - where's the love? There is none there as far as I can see. Each individual stone is special to me, whether it belongs to me or somebody else, as well as an individual challenge.

It appears I may have over-estimated the threat - but this is based on the fact that are high percentage of things ultimately are fully-automatable, things I never thought I would see automated have already had most of the humans removed from them. However, faceting of natural stones does not appear to be one of them at this point in time at least. I still think it's coming but there are some natural physical limitations that might never be overcome or will surely slow down the process.

I'm sorry Christian - I wish you well in your endevour. It seems that what excites you is the challenge of actually creating the machine, rather than what it actually does.

Cheers

Mr Magoo said:

Lefty said:

I think you would need one individual automated cutting station per indivdual stone, each one programmed to cut an individual design to suit each stone at one time - that would significantly crimp output potential. I still think it would be faster and cheaper than a human but not nearly as much as the machine in the video.

I can still imagine a bunch of small automated cutting stations all linked to a computer, each one doing it's own thing with the computer multitasking to run all of them - but it's hard to see how that would not increase costs, making it less desirable.

Click to expand...

That's what I'm saying. The maths don't work with the cost of that type of machine. It's more profitable to pay a school kid a cheese sandwich to cut the stone than to pay for the maintenance and investment costs on a $100K machine and risk the machine ruining a $10K stone.
Yes it will get cheaper but not any day soon.
The diamond market will collapse before that with created diamond prices becoming lower as it becomes easier to make of a good size.

These automatic mass producing machines have been around for some time now. Jang is quite well known.

Oh i forgot to put some glu on the second stick tongue hehehe

Click to expand...

Can't the dops be dipped automatically in to UV reactive glue? layful:

Click to expand...

Yep, looks that way for the moment. Good. Can breathe a bit easier.

That's a pretty special and fortunate circumstance though - won't apply to the majority. Mum's cousin thought it applied to him but it didn't. You thought it applied to you but it didn't. I thought it would apply to a bunch of people who are now gone with machines taking their place.

I was aware of the existence of larger scale automatic machines that churned out a lot of low-value stuff like synthetics but now having seen them in action I can see the logistical difficulties that apply in this special case.

Mr Magoo said:

Can't the dops be dipped automatically in to UV reactive glue? layful:

Click to expand...

Hehe could do that too

Sorry Lefty that i can convince you at the moment. But your 'everything was better back in the days' idear is what we all say sometimes... But as you think that this is all so much easier than you are wrong!

Yes i like the building of that machine. Quiting is not an option. I also could use the time i spend in the machine cutting stones but then i coulnd build a machine Logical as is sounds. I dont know whats wrong with building a machine capable of cutting stones. As a perfectionist you'll do anything to get your goal

Oh if you want me to stop my project, that is it okey if i send you the bill of the parts and the time i spent on working on the machine?! When paid we will take a seat and cut both stones on the traditional way on one table! I also could make a full open source if you want that is accessible to everyone!? I can post everything online incluiding the software ive written and machine functions and full drawings etc... Yes i know how to produce a simple machine for under the $1000 even with G-Code! Is that what you want to see?!

Again, there arent many people in such position as i have!

The thing is, you cannot know what my passions is with faceting. Yes almost 20 years have past for my last cut, but i had a good teacher! Who has spend 40 years on stones, i've searched my whole live finding stones, amatists, peridoot and hauyn and many other.

After all, i dont care what some one believes about me, we shall see. About the machine? Mayby i should make everything public including the software. But i won't! Becouse you have realy no idear of how it is al functioning and you think its all with a touch on a button. Think twice! I know more of those kind of people. If there warent any people such as me for instance we still would living in caves

I've got some talents, and im going to use them. If it works would be cool! Then i wil be cutting again (by a single button press ) and if it is not going to work i sell everything (after tons of testing). And buy me a small boat and go fishing

Christian

I'll put your response partly down to the language barrier - I first misunderstood you, now I think you've misunderstood me.

You have convinced me :Y: Your invention once perfected will still not make a skilled human trade redundant - the automation itself looks achievable but scaling it up for mass-production faces some problems and the nature of those problems cannot be changed. I think there will be a niche for humans to keep doing this for a while yet.

As a perfectionist you'll do anything to get your goal smile

Click to expand...

Yes I know - that's why I do what I do.

Oh if you want me to stop my project, that is it okey if i send you the bill of the parts and the time i spent on working on the machine?! When paid we will take a seat and cut both stones on the traditional way on one table! I also could make a full open source if you want that is accessible to everyone!? I can post everything online incluiding the software ive written and machine functions and full drawings etc... Yes i know how to produce a simple machine for under the $1000 even with G-Code! Is that what you want to see?!

Click to expand...

Which is exactly the way I felt about what you are doing and thought I might have had to bill you for damages, before I decided there's nothing wrong with what you're doing - let me help you to understand.

I am in the process of changing occupations - I am not a young man anymore. I have spent over 25 years working in hot, hard, dirty and dangerous conditions. I have been exposed to asbestos (I don't actually have lung cancer and can only hope it never develops). I will not be returning to that kind of work. It's getting harder and my health has suffered from years of cumulative exposure to silica-filled dust and other unpleasant things.

The area I live in was part of the Australian mining boom. However, all booms end and we are now in the bust phase. All the jobs have dried up and may not return in any significant way for a very long time. Employment opportunities for a burned-out worker approaching 50 are very bad. I still need to provide for my family and the Australian unemployment benefit scheme is very poor and is almost designed to punish the unemployed for being unemployed.However, there is something I can do that not many people can do.

I have gemstones in my blood. I was chasing sapphires on the Queensland gemfields at the age of 6 and lapidary is the logical extension of that. I have a passion for it and it is also about the only thing I have to get me through. But if someone were to invent a machine that could effectively get rid of human beings from lapidary altogether, then my future would look rather bad. It would also be a tragedy to see an age-old craft wither away. However, I can see that it is not your intention to cause that and your machine will not do that anyway.

The man who built my machine is much like yourself - a highly qualified engineer and machinist, with a passion for mechanical engineering, technology and the most amazing little high-tech factory in a shed in the middle of a sugar cane field in central Queensland. He is also a keen gem cutter and was a professional for some time. Of course, the idea of the machines that Mal makes is to enhance the abilities of the human being - not replace the human being altogether.

So to sum up.....

*You have convinced me that what you are doing is fine :Y: and will not harm me and my family, nor destroy a craft for which I have a passion.

*I remain of the opinion that advances in technology are not automatically good for everybody just because they are an advance in technology. Usually they are good but not necessarily always. In the long run, if we can largely replace human beings in most fields of human endeavour and free everyone from all of their day to day tasks then we will also have freed ourselves of any purpose or meaning to our existence, at which point we might as well go and live in caves. Do you believe that? I do.

*I wish you well in your pursuit - seriously :Y: I meant it in my last post and I still mean it.

Hopefully I have now understood you correctly and you have understood me correctly.

Cheers
Jason

I'm 100% for Automatic machines. zero flaws!

If i'm going to spend a bunch of money on some flashy looking thing, i would rather know that it is 100% perfect.

DropBear said:

I'm 100% for Automatic machines. zero flaws!

If i'm going to spend a bunch of money on some flashy looking thing, i would rather know that it is 100% perfect.

Click to expand...

Ahhh! Would you be a purveyor of fine 100% perfect, zero flaws lab created stones?

Mr Magoo said:

DropBear said:

I'm 100% for Automatic machines. zero flaws!

If i'm going to spend a bunch of money on some flashy looking thing, i would rather know that it is 100% perfect.

Click to expand...

Ahhh! Would you be a purveyor of fine 100% perfect, zero flaws lab created stones?

Click to expand...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I wasn't sure if DropBear was calling my cutting flawed, or calling my stones flawed

DropBear - I'd invite you to inspect my stones closely. Remember - as robots and AI get better and better, so too the "dumb hardware" that still needs humans to operate it gets better and increases the human operators capabilities. I use a top-of-the-range modern faceting machine, a very high-precision machine capable of increments of 1/100th of a degree. No machine is 100% perfect of course and is only as good as the sum of all of it's parts - even a cutting-edge fully-automated system. But there is a world of difference between what I cut stones with and the machines of a lifetime ago - the comparison isn't even close.

My machine was built with similar technology to what Christian is using, the only difference is that it has been designed to still need a human operator. Seriously, Mal's little factory looks like the bridge of the Enterprise when you step inside.

As the human on the end of the machine, I am very pedantic about getting as close as possible to perfection. It would not be realistic for anyone - even a robot - to claim absolute 100% perfection of course..... but I'll still say that I reckon my stones are pretty damn good.

If you're talking about the physical characteristics of the stones themselves then yes - most natural stones have tiny little imperfections in them. This is because they were made in a volcano, not in a test tube. Small, natural imperfections that are not visible to the naked eye but can be picked out by careful examination under magnification are in fact desirable - in a world awash with frauds and fakes, it's good to be able to pick out evidence that what you have is in fact a genuinely rare (or at least relatively uncommon) natural object, not something created in a lab. Case in point is that green sapphire that was my last photographed stone. I just looked at it again and to the eye it looks absolutely 100% flawless - but I know that there is some very faint sergeant striping in it, although you need good magnification to pick it out and will not see it without it. This does not negatively impact on either the appearence or the value and as I said, it's desirable as some evidence that it's natural.

There's nothing wrong with lab created stones. They look good and you can have lots of fun with them for very little cost. But we shouldn't really be comparing something that was made in a chemical factory six months ago with something that came to the surface in an ancient volcanic eruption and lay there for many millions of years, watched the dinosaurs rise and fall, until finally it was picked up by a person and turned into a finished gem. The difference may be a bit esoteric but it's there

hahaha Sure mate, send me a few lol

Lefty said:

I wasn't sure if DropBear was calling my cutting flawed, or calling my stones flawed

DropBear - I'd invite you to inspect my stones closely. Remember - as robots and AI get better and better, so too the "dumb hardware" that still needs humans to operate it gets better and increases the human operators capabilities. I use a top-of-the-range modern faceting machine, a very high-precision machine capable of increments of 1/100th of a degree. No machine is 100% perfect of course and is only as good as the sum of all of it's parts - even a cutting-edge fully-automated system. But there is a world of difference between what I cut stones with and the machines of a lifetime ago - the comparison isn't even close.

My machine was built with similar technology to what Christian is using, the only difference is that it has been designed to still need a human operator. Seriously, Mal's little factory looks like the bridge of the Enterprise when you step inside.

As the human on the end of the machine, I am very pedantic about getting as close as possible to perfection. It would not be realistic for anyone - even a robot - to claim absolute 100% perfection of course..... but I'll still say that I reckon my stones are pretty damn good.

If you're talking about the physical characteristics of the stones themselves then yes - most natural stones have tiny little imperfections in them. This is because they were made in a volcano, not in a test tube. Small, natural imperfections that are not visible to the naked eye but can be picked out by careful examination under magnification are in fact desirable - in a world awash with frauds and fakes, it's good to be able to pick out evidence that what you have is in fact a genuinely rare (or at least relatively uncommon) natural object, not something created in a lab. Case in point is that green sapphire that was my last photographed stone. I just looked at it again and to the eye it looks absolutely 100% flawless - but I know that there is some very faint sergeant striping in it, although you need good magnification to pick it out and will not see it without it. This does not negatively impact on either the appearence or the value and as I said, it's desirable as some evidence that it's natural.

There's nothing wrong with lab created stones. They look good and you can have lots of fun with them for very little cost. But we shouldn't really be comparing something that was made in a chemical factory six months ago with something that came to the surface in an ancient volcanic eruption and lay there for many millions of years, watched the dinosaurs rise and fall, until finally it was picked up by a person and turned into a finished gem. The difference may be a bit esoteric but it's there

Click to expand...

DropBear said:

hahaha Sure mate, send me a few lol

Lefty said:

I wasn't sure if DropBear was calling my cutting flawed, or calling my stones flawed

DropBear - I'd invite you to inspect my stones closely. Remember - as robots and AI get better and better, so too the "dumb hardware" that still needs humans to operate it gets better and increases the human operators capabilities. I use a top-of-the-range modern faceting machine, a very high-precision machine capable of increments of 1/100th of a degree. No machine is 100% perfect of course and is only as good as the sum of all of it's parts - even a cutting-edge fully-automated system. But there is a world of difference between what I cut stones with and the machines of a lifetime ago - the comparison isn't even close.

My machine was built with similar technology to what Christian is using, the only difference is that it has been designed to still need a human operator. Seriously, Mal's little factory looks like the bridge of the Enterprise when you step inside.

As the human on the end of the machine, I am very pedantic about getting as close as possible to perfection. It would not be realistic for anyone - even a robot - to claim absolute 100% perfection of course..... but I'll still say that I reckon my stones are pretty damn good.

If you're talking about the physical characteristics of the stones themselves then yes - most natural stones have tiny little imperfections in them. This is because they were made in a volcano, not in a test tube. Small, natural imperfections that are not visible to the naked eye but can be picked out by careful examination under magnification are in fact desirable - in a world awash with frauds and fakes, it's good to be able to pick out evidence that what you have is in fact a genuinely rare (or at least relatively uncommon) natural object, not something created in a lab. Case in point is that green sapphire that was my last photographed stone. I just looked at it again and to the eye it looks absolutely 100% flawless - but I know that there is some very faint sergeant striping in it, although you need good magnification to pick it out and will not see it without it. This does not negatively impact on either the appearence or the value and as I said, it's desirable as some evidence that it's natural.

There's nothing wrong with lab created stones. They look good and you can have lots of fun with them for very little cost. But we shouldn't really be comparing something that was made in a chemical factory six months ago with something that came to the surface in an ancient volcanic eruption and lay there for many millions of years, watched the dinosaurs rise and fall, until finally it was picked up by a person and turned into a finished gem. The difference may be a bit esoteric but it's there

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

No worries mate :Y: Just message me through your address, I've got some nice sapphires here waiting to be cut. Of course you understand I can't just give them away for free and that good natural sapphire cost substantially more than lab created.

Cheers

Mr Magoo said:

DropBear said:

I'm 100% for Automatic machines. zero flaws!

If i'm going to spend a bunch of money on some flashy looking thing, i would rather know that it is 100% perfect.

Click to expand...

Ahhh! Would you be a purveyor of fine 100% perfect, zero flaws lab created stones?

Click to expand...

Since you haven't responded to MM's query, I'll have to assume the answer is "yes".

I'll just say the same to you as Christian said to me: "Don't worry!"

There's no need for us to get in each other's road at all. We are filling two different niches. People have always bought the rare, natural object and they have also always bought the lower-cost imitations. And presumably always will. Glass has long been used in jewellery to emulate precious stones. I even recall seeing an ancient recipe for making convincing-looking fake Lapis Lazuli or turquoise, or something similar.

I think there will always be a ready market for both natural and man-made.

Intrinsic flawlessness is not the main factor in the cost difference between natural and man-made, though the closer to flawless the better obviously. The higher price of natural stems from the fact that they are not only a beautiful but a rare natural object. Man-made can be engineered to appear flawless but lacks any such scarcity. It is not only whether or not they look flashy - it is what they are that counts.

So as far as I can see, man-made gems derive the value that they have from the fact that these rare natural objects first exist to be copied. If natural gems did not exist at all, cubic zirconia would probably hold zero attraction for us.

Or as I like to say:

man-made gems that are a chemical replica of the natural thing are something clever............but the real thing is something special

The one major advantage of man made, particularly sapphire, is it allows newbies like myself to become familiar with some of the characteristics of the material before putting a valuable gem on the lap and stuffing it. Plus the more time cutting different materials, having problems, recutting and finally getting good results, the better one's skills become. Synthetics are also great for cutting a nice bit of bling for those who can't afford the real thing.

CZ, hydro-thermal, bottlite, boules of Spinel and Sapphire are great to fail on, a 20ct flawless stone.... that's another matter. I keep looking at a nice (9.5ct) Columbian Emerald rough sitting in the box, but every time I pick it up a pair of eyes suddenly appear from nowhere, they usually come with a few well chosen words and the stone's back in the box. 8.(

Also working with large synthetics can seriously challenge ones skills with meets, accurate sizing and of course polish. Many cutters, even experienced ones have trouble with diamond/hard lap polishing, synthetic laps can cover up a lot of woes, so synthetics are a great learning tool.

That's their best feature imo - excellent practice material.

DropBear said:

I'm 100% for Automatic machines. zero flaws! If i'm going to spend a bunch of money on some flashy looking thing, i would rather know that it is 100% perfect.

Click to expand...

Your wrong! Even automatic faceting isnt perfect. But if you let the machine in non-force you can get verry close. But it still need human interact... Automatic faceting is possible, but not everything. The human eye needs to inspect

So 90% Automatic

To Lefty:

On your last post! Thanks that we can go trough one door again!

Seems there needs to be better programming then in the software
get some AI and learning software in there, etc.

Nena said:

DropBear said:

I'm 100% for Automatic machines. zero flaws! If i'm going to spend a bunch of money on some flashy looking thing, i would rather know that it is 100% perfect.

Click to expand...

Your wrong! Even automatic faceting isnt perfect. But if you let the machine in non-force you can get verry close. But it still need human interact... Automatic faceting is possible, but not everything. The human eye needs to inspect

Click to expand...