250w Bi-Fold Solar Panels Strip Damage

Test one panel at a time is gonna be the way to go with a 10A multimeter.

I hear ya and yes a no brainer taking it to auto elec but life is a bit complicated at the moment so that is not an option.

Simmo said:

You are right Bro! if its a 10 amp meter, then test one panel at a time!
Or just drop into an auto elec???
Far out, if it was my shop, I'd test it for free and see you on your way...
Bet that next time you want stuff, you come to me first for a quote??!!

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Yep I like it a bit rough so gonna do the blanket job and test through the controller input or junction boxes accordingly.

Both junction boxes are hard wired with solder so I might be able to test the first panel junction box but the second will have 2 loads of output as they cant be disconnected but I'll chop and change with blanket and see what happens.

Occasional_panner said:

Don't get hung up about mppt or pwm, in the small systems like these they make so little difference it's simply not worth spending the extra money. Pwm will do perfectly well.
If you have never used a multimeter before maybe a better idea to handball the job.

I'd be happy to test it for you mate but I'm down in Melb.
If you do want to do it, you'll need to open the junction box at he back of each panel and test the output of each one.
Or a very rough way of doing it would be to cover half with something that completely blocked out the sun and test each half at a time. This will work as the panels will be connected in parallel.
Sun will bounce off the ground too so don't just leave it folded in half and test that way, you need to completely block the sun from each side while you test the other side.
https://www.prospectingaustralia.com/forum/img/member-images/7956/1535668788_amp_test.jpg

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Agreed :Y:

Bogger said:

yass00_Au said:

That is a really sexxxy looking controller there Bogger, what are you running into that and to charge what if you don't mind me asking?

I just love watching people who are enthusiastic, quirky, eccentric and master of their trades or professions just like your guy in the video. More so when I come into contact with these types in real life, its an honor and an absolute real pleasure :Y:

Bogger said:

Just brought a GENUINE MPPT controller on Ebay recently ............... $120

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Victron...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

The cheapo one's as below ............... don't get sucked in as there are others look almost the same. Plenty of U Tube vids showing the one's to avoid

[video=480,360]https://youtu.be/THHkmwfbOJQ[/video]

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Not sure on the sexy but certainly quality :Y: Basically have one panel on vehicle roof that's run thru a DCDC unit and use this controller to connect other panels to either camper or AGM battery in vehicle if fixed panel on vehicle is not keeping up with demand. Basically it replaces the cheap / useless controllers that most of the cheaper panels come with. Running a couple of fridges along with water pump and lights etc in camper. You really need to set up depending on the needs of what you plan to do ? One or two nights, then almost anything will suffice, but camped up for weeks on end becomes a whole different scenario. Many things come into account, as an example the power required for running an 80 litre fridge in Vic winter with ambient temps of 15 C is far different to what's needed for running the same in FNQ at temps over 40 c

Just as OP has said PWM - MPPT not really the big issue as long as it's a quality controller that is working as it should be will do the job.
https://www.prospectingaustralia.com/forum/img/member-images/7268/1535671365_mppt_controller.jpg

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I would have thought probes would have to be on output on that middle one with battery icon. Probes to input it is then.

I was going to dish out for a DC 20A multimeter but now with the blanket job, 10A will suffice.

If panels have to go back and a 20% restocking fee applies for 'covering their costs'? As they state, FFS not happy Jan!

Going to be :cloudy: and raining in Sydney from Sunday through to all next week as well so will have to wait till weekend or longer to test.

Occasional_panner said:

If you did test it by blocking a side at a time you can just put the probes on the terminals like this.https://www.prospectingaustralia.com/forum/img/member-images/7956/1535669219_connection.jpg

Block one side, test the amps, then do the other. Don't leave it on too long as it will fry the meter just 5 sec or so.

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Forecast is 21 and mostly sunny for Sydney today.

Get one of these https://www.altronics.com.au/p/q1053b-digital-multimeter-19-range-with-transistor-test/

Or these https://www.jaycar.com.au/low-cost-digital-multimeter-dmm/p/QM1500

That will do fine. With this type, put the black lead in the bottom socket and red in the top socket set the dial to 10A which is 2/3 down on the right.

You don't need it in series, you are just testing short circuit current, put the probes in the controller as per my previous pic.
Done.

Today will be sunny but not from Sunday onwards so I'm going in a bit and hopefuly I can get back before the suns peak period dies down.

Auburn Altronics has one in stock and has put one aside for me :Y:

Occasional_panner said:

Forecast is 21 and mostly sunny for Sydney today.

Get one of these https://www.altronics.com.au/p/q1053b-digital-multimeter-19-range-with-transistor-test/

Or these https://www.jaycar.com.au/low-cost-digital-multimeter-dmm/p/QM1500

That will do fine. With this type, put the black lead in the bottom socket and red in the top socket set the dial to 10A which is 2/3 down on the right.

You don't need it in series, you are just testing short circuit current, put the probes in the controller as per my previous pic.
Done.

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Just for a bit of clarity, there is a lot of information on solar panels and how they are made and function however, there is not a lot of information specifically regarding the vertical strips/tabs you can see on the front of panels that connect each cell and then to the top thicker horizontal strips/tabs.

As far as I understand, the top layer of wafer converts the sun's energy then a transfer to the bellow wafer occurs and each wafer is linked underneath all heading towards the junction box and onwards to be regulated and consumed.

Seems some kind of transfer strip to spread the heat to other cells, perhaps a heat sink?

When I left home it was all blue skies and and wouldnt you know it on the way back home? I was pulling up in the drive way and it lightly overcast!

So I ended up at Jaycar in Bankstown because it was closer and didnt want to loose any precious peek sun time and the bloke at the counter was a beast in terms of knowledge, seemed like a real good bloke. He suggested doing Open-Circuit Voltage test as the Short-Circuit Current will blow the internal fuse on immediate contact with this cheap multiumeter so I did exactly that. The guys said I didn't need to cover one panel when doing Open-Circuit Voltage test. BTW, one panel had full exposure but the other had only 2/3rd's the exposure due to position it was placed the room by my son before he left but also the window was a bit narrow as well.

When in the sun with a bit of light overcast the Open-Circuit Voltage was consistent on each junction box and the controller just as the guy said it would be:


When I connected Anderson plug to battery box with 130Ah AGM inside, Open-Circuit Voltage immediately dropped to:
Maybe some one can chime in on this one as it seemed to be reading the battery Voltage from all points of contact whether it be junction boxes, controller and battery box but when disconnecting Anderson plug from battery box Open-Circuit Voltage immediately shot up to same reading as in first pic of multimeter 20.8V.

I reconnected Anderson plug to battery box and went out for lunch and coffee. When I came home it was well and truly clouded over with no visible signs of sun peering through clouds, I disconnected Anderson plug from battery box and yet with all this cloud coverage the panels were pulling:


Now interestingly enough, a little later the clouds thickened up even more and turned a deep grey and the panels were still pushing:
This seems sufficient voltage ower: to keep battery topped up on a cloudy day depending on draw that is.

Cool, lots of good questions and input on this thread from the basics to the technical so I can see it helping many who may be reluctant to reach out and have similar curiosities or oddities in my case, but aren't we all an oddity in some way or another, it's all a matter of perspective I suspect

Voltage means nothing... well it does mean that you have a circuit.
Considering that, the panels are probably fine.
Amps is the actual power though, and that's what you need to measure.

If you covered one side of the panels and did a short circuit test on the 10Amp setting it would not have blown that meter, as long as you didn't keep it there longer than 10 seconds, and properly covered one side of the panels.

That is what the amp test part of that meter is for.

The reason your voltage dropped to 13.1 is because it's a pwm controller not mppt.

Mppt have a dc dc converter in them, where the panel voltage stays high and the output from the controller feeds the correct battery voltage.

This conversion uses up power in the process, so that's why it's a marginal on small systems, pwm is just fine on a small setup.

Bogger is correct though for prolonged trips the extra 10-15% extra efficiency you may get (from decent sun) does add up with mppt.

Have a look at this, it looks bad yeah? Well... it does show bad QC but the panel works just fine, same amps as the nice looking ones.
So don't stress about looks, it is a slight indicator about the longevity as it has a bit to do with the pride in their work and qc, but volt and amp tests will show more.

So much for advertising listing stating MPPT Controller :awful:

Righto, I'll do the DC test next but it will have to be in a weeks time when the sun makes an appearance again as it is forecast for rain all next week so TBA on that front.

If I blow the multimeter I can always just hook up the fridge/freezer to battery box, run some LED's sporadically also charge kids and Mrs devices over a period of 3 days while examining where I can through battery box volt meter observations and maybe keep a log as well.

I'll be happy with that if voltage drops at night obviously and battery keeps charge during the day throughout the real word test so to speak which will give me a baseline on panel expectations without having Short Circuit Current stats.

Occasional_panner said:

Voltage means nothing... well it does mean that you have a circuit.
Considering that, the panels are probably fine.
Amps is the actual power though, and that's what you need to measure.

If you covered one side of the panels and did a short circuit test on the 10Amp setting it would not have blown that meter, as long as you didn't keep it there longer than 10 seconds, and properly covered one side of the panels.

That is what the amp test part of that meter is for.

The reason your voltage dropped to 13.1 is because it's a pwm controller not mppt.

Mppt have a dc dc converter in them, where the panel voltage stays high and the output from the controller feeds the correct battery voltage.

This conversion uses up power in the process, so that's why it's a marginal on small systems, pwm is just fine on a small setup.

Bogger is correct though for prolonged trips the extra 10-15% extra efficiency you may get (from decent sun) does add up with mppt.

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If it was listed as mppt you got ripped and rightfully warranted to tell the seller to F.U and get a return.
To be honest, that price is probably fine and you really don't need an mppt, but screw the seller as much as you can, because the turd lied to you and mislead a buyer.
Push the A hole for a 50% discount and keep the item. Or 100% refund and return as the ad was totally fraudulent and you will take up his fraudulent activities with ebay and paypal.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GISTA-1...an-Camping-Mono/222665453342?var=521517999950

Occasional_panner said:

If it was listed as mppt you got ripped and rightfully warranted to tell the seller to F.U and get a return.
To be honest, that price is probably fine and you really don't need an mppt, but screw the seller as much as you can, because the turd lied to you and mislead a buyer.
Push the A hole for a 50% discount and keep the item. Or 100% refund and return as the ad was totally fraudulent and you will take up his fraudulent activities with ebay and paypal.

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Well you paid a reasonable price for it and the pwm will be just fine. BUT I personally hate A holes selling stuff fraudulently.

Just confirm it and do this test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMFf0se1PqU

Put the probes in the solar input as per pic on post 19, have meter set to volts(left side for dc, the volts on the right side is for ac) black lead in the bottom socket, and red lead in the middle socket.

If the volts from the panel stay high then it's mppt, if it gets dragged down to slightly above the batt voltage then it's pwm.

Mppt uses a dcdc converter pwm just connects direct to battery and pulses off to keep battery volts from overcharging.

I'd hit them up for a genuine MPPT controller ..................... or refund the amount for you to obtain one ?
As these controllers are super cheap (buy in 50 quantity and around $5) many reviews state they are many times not even a PWM. As they can be an unknown in how they will control voltage you only need to fry up one battery and it costs you more than the complete original purchase.

Ok so, this is going to be long winded but I've tried to be as concise as possible.

Test conditions : Cloudy with partial bursts of sun but not many.

Battery box inbuilt voltmeter 12.7 V.

Battery box tested with multimeter 12.7 V.

Solar panel junction boxes and controller tested at 20.08 V without battery box connected.

Solar panel junction boxes and controller tested with battery box connected 13.1 V but every 5 seconds it jumps up 20.08 V for a split second and immediately drops back to 13.1 V and does this cycle every 5 seconds.

Solar panel 10Ah test covering one panel without battery box connected:
Left solar panel junction box tested at 0.58Ah (cloudy) and at 2.42Ah (cloudy with a sunny burst) both at 5 seconds with right panel being covered.
Right solar panel junction box tested at 0.57Ah (cloudy, sunny burst not able to be tested due to conditions) with left panel being covered.

When solar panels were plugged into battery box, battery box voltmeter went from in 12.7 V in 1hour and 15 minutes to 13.4V and confirmed with multimeter set to DC V before and after for comparative accuracy. Over the next 10 minutes, battery box voltmeter dropped from 13.4 V to 13.1 V and stayed there for around 30 minutes till left home. It seems the solar panels regulator is doing its job in terms of regulating and not over charging battery with the battery box voltage drop and stable reading while float charging?

I went out for lunch and when I returned 5 hours later which was after 17:00, very overcast and loosing light quickly in those conditions for that time in the evening, battery box voltmeter was reading 12.9 V with solar panels still connected to battery box.

Inconclusive in my view due to not ideal conditions.

Should I do a 10Ah test on solar panels with battery box connected?

Guy at Jaycar yesterday said If testing solar panels Short Circuit Current properly, you need to bypass black somewhere on the solar panel but it needs to be completely disconnected or isolated to get an accurate reading. I was out of my technical prowess in terms of electronics and struggled with his instruction but he did squiggle it down for me on a receipt but I cant find receipt in my pockets or wallet :/

Yeah clearly from that video I now understand the differences between PWM and MPPT when comparing multimeter data :Y: but the friggin sticker states MPPT on the front of controller as does sellers listing.

I don't mind at this stage if controller is PWM even if advertised as MPPT but it goes back to damaged vertical strips and if effecting output.

If I test in optimal conditions and I'm getting close to Short Circuit Current then I'm not fussed however, failing the conditions to do so I will need to do a real world test as stated in previous posts to see how efficient the panels produce output to charge battery while consumption is constant from fridge/freezer, charging iPads, iPhones and running some LED's over a 3 to 4 day test period so panels output will be the clincher whether I keep unit or send it back but again, I need optimal conditions for testing and argument for return as stated in sellers return policy.

I have already put in a request for refund so I have 60 days from day of request to resolve and choose in which direction I go in.

Sellers return policy, well some of what is relevant in my case:

1.We offer 60 days warranty return.

Please Note:
For all returned non-faulty items (as confirmed by our technical department upon testing of the received items), the Buyer will be responsible for paying return shipping if they still require the item or a 20% re-stocking fee will be deducted from the final refund if a refund is requested.

5.Please test large items prior to installation or use, we will not accept unconfirmed faulty large item returns - e.g. solar panels.

Occasional_panner said:

Well you paid a reasonable price for it and the pwm will be just fine. BUT I personally hate A holes selling stuff fraudulently.

Just confirm it and do this test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMFf0se1PqU

Put the probes in the solar input as per pic on post 19, have meter set to volts(left side for dc, the volts on the right side is for ac) black lead in the bottom socket, and red lead in the middle socket.

If the volts from the panel stay high then it's mppt, if it gets dragged down to slightly above the batt voltage then it's pwm.

Mppt uses a dcdc converter pwm just connects direct to battery and pulses off to keep battery volts from overcharging.

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I will go down this road if panels are close to Short-Circuit Current specs in optimal conditions :Y:

Bogger said:

I'd hit them up for a genuine MPPT controller ..................... or refund the amount for you to obtain one ?
As these controllers are super cheap (buy in 50 quantity and around $5) many reviews state they are many times not even a PWM. As they can be an unknown in how they will control voltage you only need to fry up one battery and it costs you more than the complete original purchase.

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Mate take no notice of their return blurb rubbish, they can write what they like and it means and amounts to nothing. They sell in Australia so they come under Australian consumer law ................... full stop. Faulty panel or not, false and misleading representation alone gives you a full refund including any cost to return. In their case you could even claim all costs endured as a result because they would know that controller was not MPPT when sold you?
Hope you get it sorted as your certainly putting in the effort to do so :Y:

Aust Consumer Law
You can seek compensation for damages and losses you suffer due to a problem with a product or service if the supplier could have reasonably foreseen the problem. This is in addition to your repair, replacement or refund rights.

Simple load test.
Get two 100w 12v bulbs.
Put your meter into voltage mode.
Measure the voltage across the bulb.
Then measure the amperage through the bulb as well.
Then, Hook the two bulbs together across each other and then measure again.
.

100w divided by 12 = 8.3 amps load.
(Have to get a new mouse. )