Smelting galena

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Nicko98

Nick
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
41
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67
Location
Blue Mountains, NSW
Hey guys, thought I would put the question to you!
Ive been out to an old mine site that was built primarily on the mining of lead and silver ore, in the form of galena.
I collected some of the good stuff (about 20kg) from the old piles below the mine shafts and crushed it up in to a powder with a lump hammer. Took forever..
Ive tried multiple times using my little coke furnace (can exceed 2500 degrees) to melt the galena once I mix it with carbon in a graphite crucible, but I just cant get it to works
Any ideas/suggestions?
Thanks!
Nicko
 
You would need a temperature of 1200 degrees Celsius and a pressure of five times atmospheric pressure to melt pure galena (I have never yet seen a mine that mined pure galena, it is usually mixed with sphalerite which you could never melt). I realise that you are adding carbon but am not sure why you think smelting it with carbon would produce lead metal - the first stage in a lead blast furnace is oxidising the galena to get rid of the sulphur using a blast of oxygen to produce (highly toxic) sulphur dioxide (one of the gases used in chemical warfare in Syria - they simply set fire to piles of sulphur in the open with the wind blowing towards people). The lead sulphide is converted to lead oxide by the oxygen in the furnace, giving off vast amounts of sulphur dioxide (galena is 22% sulphur so your sample has 9 kg of sulphur in it, which would produce nearly double that mass of gas - imagine what 16 kg of gas looks like, it would fill a shopping mall and more! 0.01% sulphur dioxide mixed in air can kill you and double that would kill you on the spot.

Take care with your metallurgy - I used to work in a laboratory with sulphur dioxide and it was horrendous staff (it mixes with the moisture in your oesophagus and lungs to form sulphuric acid) - hydrogen sulphide gas produced by putting acid on some minerals will also kill you at only a slightly higher concentration. Some people have mocked my warnings on this blog - if you want to play chemical roulette it is your choice - but don't realise that people have dropped dead on the spot from backyard experiments at little more than test-tube scale, by simply misreading which way the wind was blowing and taking a single whiff. I had about 2 ml of sulphur dioxide gas in a tube that broke in a room the size of a 2-car garage and I collapsed unable to breathe (it feels like someone has totally sealed your windpipe while pouring neat acid down it - they are scarred by it). Lead vapour is toxic and virtually all lead ore contains sphalerite (zinc sphalerite), commonly more of it than galena, and sphalerite almost always contains per cents of cadmium - these minerals do not melt when heated but go directly to vapour at temperatures lower than you are using in your furnace and cadmium is deadly (cadmium compares with things like arsenic and mercury, yet you are breathing it in; 0.001 % in your blood will kill you). I worked in a zinc fuming smelter where the ore contained 25% cadmium in the mineral (wurtzite), not the 1% of sphalerite (unusual). It has killed many people in Japan (they call it itai itai disease and has horrible symptoms (brain, nervous systems) - traces got into the irrigation water used on rice paddies from a nearby battery factory, and from the water it got into the rice. It is significant in cigarettes and the lungs absorb it much more efficiently than the stomach (ditto arsenic, a strong carcinogen used as a weedicide in tobacco growing). At lower doses both zinc and cadmium totally destroy your sense of smell permanently (few chemists have a sense of smell in old age and one loses a few friends via fumes and skin absorption of things like liquid benzene and metallic and organic compounds, and the low-dose cadmium will ultimately give you cancer. Arsenic is similar at low concentrations - drinking water must have less than 0.005 mg per litre of arsenic in it - 300,000 people in Bangla Desh have been killed by their drinking water and 3 to 5 million more are expected to die from it - natural contamination not industrial (I worked on that project). To give another example, that old mine water in the old gold workings you are splashing through commonly has 400 times that arsenic concentration and would kill you instantly if you drank it (people do drink water from gold mine tunnels, I have seen it damned in tunnels in Victoria to supply drinking water to nearby cabins at multiple localities (Corryong, Murmungee), and well water has killed people elsewhere) - Corryong gold ore has some of the highest arsenic content of any gold ore in Victoria (fortunately it only dissolves slowly in fresh water and soon drops out as particles once out in the oxygen-rich open). Cattle often die drinking dam water around places like Bethanga (seepage from nearby gold smelter residues).
 
Sovereign Hill Tourist Park horses often live a short life and die regularly from living in Arsenic saturated paddocks at the back of Sovereign Hill, which is the same paddock where they held the nighttime Sound & Light Show.

Back when I was the Saddler at Sovereign Hill a Chemist tested the soil and found it was more than 100 times the safe limit and suggested they move the horses to cleaner paddocks. They did. Temporarily. Since then they rotate the locations they are agisted.
Nasty stuff that Arsenic in the ground.
 
Dragon Man said:
Sovereign Hill Tourist Park horses often live a short life and die regularly from living in Arsenic saturated paddocks at the back of Sovereign Hill, which is the same paddock where they held the nighttime Sound & Light Show.

Back when I was the Saddler at Sovereign Hill a Chemist tested the soil and found it was more than 100 times the safe limit and suggested they move the horses to cleaner paddocks. They did. Temporarily. Since then they rotate the locations they are agisted.
Nasty stuff that Arsenic in the ground.
Sorry to hear that. Grazing animals like horses ingest soil with the routes of the plants (a more likely source of arsenic than the grass itself). Generations of kids in M<t Isa and Broken Hill suffered brain damage from lead. The source? House dust and garden soil. I wouldn't graze my animals right at Sovereign Hill.
Wonder who the chemist was (I analysed a traverse across Soveriegn Hill for arsenic and mercury).
 
Dragon Man said:
goldierocks said:
Wonder who the chemist was (I analysed a traverse across Soveriegn Hill for arsenic and mercury).
It might have been you. What was your findings at the time. This was back around 28 years ago :Y:
I did it in about 1993 from memory - 25 years ago.
 
Well, seeing as I dont want to kill my neighbours or myself, Im going to have to find an alternative.
What Im doing is trying to find the resources and make a ring for my partner without buying any of the materials.
Ive found myself a high quality 6.9ct sapphire, and would like to pair it with a silver band.
Do you have any suggestions for alternative ways to find and refine raw materials into silver?
Thanks!
 
Nicko98 said:
Well, seeing as I dont want to kill my neighbours or myself, Im going to have to find an alternative.
What Im doing is trying to find the resources and make a ring for my partner without buying any of the materials.
Ive found myself a high quality 6.9ct sapphire, and would like to pair it with a silver band.
Do you have any suggestions for alternative ways to find and refine raw materials into silver?
Thanks!
What you can do is ask at your lapidary club - they are forever mounting stones in silver mountings. Mountings come ready-made (do you really want to smelt it yourself)? If so, I imagine they would know where to get silver to make mountings (I assume some do that).Perhaps satisfy yourself with only buying the raw silver and then designing the ring. It is difficult to get raw silver from a mine site and smelt it down in Australia (we don't have many high-grade silver mines like the USA and central and South America, and it would be a mugs game trying to refine it from galena ore as grade is too low and you would have to usually put a third of a tonne of ore thought to get an ounce of silver). There are a few old high-grade silver sites around Zeehan in Tasmania, in northern Queensland and New England, an operating mine just outside Kalgoorlie, and a few minor sites in central west NSW and SE NSW (usually termed "epithermal"). However these high-grade ones would still require you to smelt many kilograms of ore, and it is harder to hand-pick their less-massive sulphide minerals prior to smelting. Also they can have even higher toxicity (tellurium, selenium, mercury, arsenic - tellurium and selenium go directly to vapour like zinc and cadmium).

One tip - silver is usually greatly enriched at surface around such mines, often occurring as black unattractive masses of secondary silver minerals with manganese, iron, chlorides, bromides etc that can run hundreds to thousands of ounces per tonne. But hard to smelt and refine....and you are unlikely to get primary silver sulphide mineral (argentite) from the dumps that you can recognise as such, because the silver starts converting within years to secondary minerals in the presence of oxygen and rain water. I occasionally see lumps of pure native silver or electrum (a 50/50 gold-silver alloy) in lumps of an ounce or more - Orbost, St Arnaud. But again these are commonly within the black earthy silver minerals (they also always occur near surface), but they are harder to find than gold nuggets of that size.

White gold (silver-gold-palladium alloy, often plated with rhodium), zirconium, tungsten, cobalt, bronze and titanium are all used in rings nowadays. I assume it is that you want a silver coloured metal to contrast with the stone? Only a few of these would satisfy that, and most require high temperature and complex smelting (eg in an inert gas atmosphere). Keep in mind that many metals cause allergic reactions in contact with the skin. Personally I like white gold best when I want something silvery (pure silver requires regular polishing and will wear down with time). Nothing beats gold, silver or platinum metals for long-term lustre and/or wear.

Personally I would consider being satisfied with having found the stone and making the ring from purchased silver. Someone like Leftie might give you advice.
 
Thats a bit of a kick in the guts!
I collected some dark mineral in quartz from yerranderie, when I was younger, that has tarnished over time. What do you reckon about that?
Any silver precious metal will do! Im a first year apprentice in carpentry, so being povo was the motivation for collecting and refining the silver myself!
I live in the blue mountains, so it sounds like a long way to go and a lot of effort for it.
I might have to look into buying some white gold or an ounce of silver!
Thanks for the help!
Nicko
 
If you can find some pre 1940 silver coins (threepence, sixpence, shilling or florin ) they are made of sterling silver and can be melted down to make jewelry.
 
goldierocks said:
Nicko98 said:
Well, seeing as I dont want to kill my neighbours or myself, Im going to have to find an alternative.
What Im doing is trying to find the resources and make a ring for my partner without buying any of the materials.
Ive found myself a high quality 6.9ct sapphire, and would like to pair it with a silver band.
Do you have any suggestions for alternative ways to find and refine raw materials into silver?
Thanks!
What you can do is ask at your lapidary club - they are forever mounting stones in silver mountings. Mountings come ready-made (do you really want to smelt it yourself)? If so, I imagine they would know where to get silver to make mountings (I assume some do that).Perhaps satisfy yourself with only buying the raw silver and then designing the ring. It is difficult to get raw silver from a mine site and smelt it down in Australia (we don't have many high-grade silver mines like the USA and central and South America, and it would be a mugs game trying to refine it from galena ore as grade is too low and you would have to usually put a third of a tonne of ore thought to get an ounce of silver). There are a few old high-grade silver sites around Zeehan in Tasmania, in northern Queensland and New England, an operating mine just outside Kalgoorlie, and a few minor sites in central west NSW and SE NSW (usually termed "epithermal"). However these high-grade ones would still require you to smelt many kilograms of ore, and it is harder to hand-pick their less-massive sulphide minerals prior to smelting. Also they can have even higher toxicity (tellurium, selenium, mercury, arsenic - tellurium and selenium go directly to vapour like zinc and cadmium).

One tip - silver is usually greatly enriched at surface around such mines, often occurring as black unattractive masses of secondary silver minerals with manganese, iron, chlorides, bromides etc that can run hundreds to thousands of ounces per tonne. But hard to smelt and refine....and you are unlikely to get primary silver sulphide mineral (argentite) from the dumps that you can recognise as such, because the silver starts converting within years to secondary minerals in the presence of oxygen and rain water. I occasionally see lumps of pure native silver or electrum (a 50/50 gold-silver alloy) in lumps of an ounce or more - Orbost, St Arnaud. But again these are commonly within the black earthy silver minerals (they also always occur near surface), but they are harder to find than gold nuggets of that size.

White gold (silver-gold-palladium alloy, often plated with rhodium), zirconium, tungsten, cobalt, bronze and titanium are all used in rings nowadays. I assume it is that you want a silver coloured metal to contrast with the stone? Only a few of these would satisfy that, and most require high temperature and complex smelting (eg in an inert gas atmosphere). Keep in mind that many metals cause allergic reactions in contact with the skin. Personally I like white gold best when I want something silvery (pure silver requires regular polishing and will wear down with time). Nothing beats gold, silver or platinum metals for long-term lustre and/or wear.

Personally I would consider being satisfied with having found the stone and making the ring from purchased silver. Someone like Leftie might give you advice.
I meant to say nothing beats gold, white gold or platinum metals....Yerranderie was fairly high silver I think but not sure....it is epithermal
 
I agree with all of what was said above. I have worked at mines all over the world and smelting is very dangerous and should only ever be done by professionally trained people. I get asked all the time about this sort of thing along with gold from electronics and using mercury in prospecting and my advice has always been only one word. DONT

Araluen
 
goldierocks said:
Take care with your metallurgy - I used to work in a laboratory with sulphur dioxide and it was horrendous staff (it mixes with the moisture in your oesophagus and lungs to form sulphuric acid) - hydrogen sulphide gas produced by putting acid on some minerals will also kill you at only a slightly higher concentration. Some people have mocked my warnings on this blog - if you want to play chemical roulette it is your choice - but don't realise that people have dropped dead on the spot from backyard experiments at little more than test-tube scale, by simply misreading which way the wind was blowing and taking a single whiff. I had about 2 ml of sulphur dioxide gas in a tube that broke in a room the size of a 2-car garage and I collapsed unable to breathe (it feels like someone has totally sealed your windpipe while pouring neat acid down it - they are scarred by it). Lead vapour is toxic and virtually all lead ore contains sphalerite (zinc sphalerite), commonly more of it than galena, and sphalerite almost always contains per cents of cadmium - these minerals do not melt when heated but go directly to vapour at temperatures lower than you are using in your furnace and cadmium is deadly (cadmium compares with things like arsenic and mercury, yet you are breathing it in; 0.001 % in your blood will kill you). I worked in a zinc fuming smelter where the ore contained 25% cadmium in the mineral (wurtzite), not the 1% of sphalerite (unusual). It has killed many people in Japan (they call it itai itai disease and has horrible symptoms (brain, nervous systems) - traces got into the irrigation water used on rice paddies from a nearby battery factory, and from the water it got into the rice. It is significant in cigarettes and the lungs absorb it much more efficiently than the stomach (ditto arsenic, a strong carcinogen used as a weedicide in tobacco growing). At lower doses both zinc and cadmium totally destroy your sense of smell permanently (few chemists have a sense of smell in old age and one loses a few friends via fumes and skin absorption of things like liquid benzene and metallic and organic compounds,

A big lesson I learned while playing pyromaniac at home while a kid of about 13. Using my nose to see if my electrolysis of salt water had been successful at obtaining Chlorine.
Pain in your throat and uncontrollable coughing that you would never wish to experience which lasted for about 45 minutes after exposure. But hey, on the bright side, I had Chlorine.
 
Wishfull said:
Wow, we should have a new Topic on this. I got a few good stories. Might need to be carefully about all the blakpowdrstuff though.
HAHAHAHA I too love blackpowder . Mixed just right it makes very good firelighters, although a bit smokey, it will light wet wood! Makes other things go POP! too when made correctly. Like rabbit warren excavation, stump removal.....does party tricks too
Itsa shame that KNO3 is now a controlled substance.
All in the past now (apparently) :cool:
 
The World of Lapidary/Mineralogy is full of Hazards to the unknown..... Hydrogen Sulphide (h2s) will kill you well before you know something is wrong....

If you walk through old mines and there is water on the floor, stop, stir the water and see if there are bubbles rising, if there is Get Out real quick as that will be Hydrogen Sulphide gas rising....

You were very lucky there goldierocks.... ;)

LW....
 
Mr Magoo said:
goldierocks said:
Take care with your metallurgy - I used to work in a laboratory with sulphur dioxide and it was horrendous staff (it mixes with the moisture in your oesophagus and lungs to form sulphuric acid) - hydrogen sulphide gas produced by putting acid on some minerals will also kill you at only a slightly higher concentration. Some people have mocked my warnings on this blog - if you want to play chemical roulette it is your choice - but don't realise that people have dropped dead on the spot from backyard experiments at little more than test-tube scale, by simply misreading which way the wind was blowing and taking a single whiff. I had about 2 ml of sulphur dioxide gas in a tube that broke in a room the size of a 2-car garage and I collapsed unable to breathe (it feels like someone has totally sealed your windpipe while pouring neat acid down it - they are scarred by it). Lead vapour is toxic and virtually all lead ore contains sphalerite (zinc sphalerite), commonly more of it than galena, and sphalerite almost always contains per cents of cadmium - these minerals do not melt when heated but go directly to vapour at temperatures lower than you are using in your furnace and cadmium is deadly (cadmium compares with things like arsenic and mercury, yet you are breathing it in; 0.001 % in your blood will kill you). I worked in a zinc fuming smelter where the ore contained 25% cadmium in the mineral (wurtzite), not the 1% of sphalerite (unusual). It has killed many people in Japan (they call it itai itai disease and has horrible symptoms (brain, nervous systems) - traces got into the irrigation water used on rice paddies from a nearby battery factory, and from the water it got into the rice. It is significant in cigarettes and the lungs absorb it much more efficiently than the stomach (ditto arsenic, a strong carcinogen used as a weedicide in tobacco growing). At lower doses both zinc and cadmium totally destroy your sense of smell permanently (few chemists have a sense of smell in old age and one loses a few friends via fumes and skin absorption of things like liquid benzene and metallic and organic compounds,

A big lesson I learned while playing pyromaniac at home while a kid of about 13. Using my nose to see if my electrolysis of salt water had been successful at obtaining Chlorine.
Pain in your throat and uncontrollable coughing that you would never wish to experience which lasted for about 45 minutes after exposure. But hey, on the bright side, I had Chlorine.
Me too....
 
Ded Driver said:
Wishfull said:
Wow, we should have a new Topic on this. I got a few good stories. Might need to be carefully about all the blakpowdrstuff though.
HAHAHAHA I too love blackpowder . Mixed just right it makes very good firelighters, although a bit smokey, it will light wet wood! Makes other things go POP! too when made correctly. Like rabbit warren excavation, stump removal.....does party tricks too
Itsa shame that KNO3 is now a controlled substance.
All in the past now (apparently) :cool:

Since about what time has KNO3 been a controlled substance? Not that long ago I was in a garden centre asking about small quantities to help rot a stump that I wanted to remove and was told the smallest quantity for purchase was 25kg.
 
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