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#51

Ag Man
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From: Newborough, Vicco
Joined: 06 January 2013
Posts: 1,039
Member
04 February 2014 09:30 am

onespecSteve wrote:

The problem is Marked is that 4x4ers, motorbikes go off the tracks and do damage too. yet we are banned and they still have free run...

Not quite a "free run" there's always rogues that will do their hobby/activity outside the law. Some bikes & 4x4s do go off the tracks but do so illegally - bit like some prospectors still go into national parks & dredge.
Either will attract a fine if caught.

In the interest of our hobby, best just to avoid waters on the list.


GS10 Highbanker, McKirk sluice, Garret pans, yabby pump etc., Whites Coinmaster 6000D

#52

Hare_Twigga
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Joined: 27 December 2013
Posts: 135
Member
04 February 2014 08:39 pm

I'm sure there is not an active prospector in Australia that could have never stepped outside the boundaries of these laws. Damage one tree root and your no goody two shoes anymore.

#53

HeadsUp
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Joined: 17 April 2013
Posts: 2,624
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04 February 2014 08:43 pm

Hare_Twigga wrote:

I'm sure there is not an active prospector in Australia that could have never stepped outside the boundaries of these laws. Damage one tree root and your no goody two shoes anymore.

i hope they dont include dead tree roots in their rules ?

I dont dig under living trees

a) coz i dont want to hurt the trees feelings , and i like oxygen

b) the very old trees that lived to be 60 years old then died 40 years ago gives us 100 years of gold under their roots . much more attractive proposition IMO


On a mission to rescue as many gold nuggets as i can before those poor souls get washed out to sea . GPX5000 smilemaker , self built highbanker and enthusiastic shovel

#54

Hare_Twigga
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Joined: 27 December 2013
Posts: 135
Member
04 February 2014 08:55 pm

Well is states:  Remove or damage ANY tree or shrub on the land.

#55

HeadsUp
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Joined: 17 April 2013
Posts: 2,624
Member
04 February 2014 09:02 pm

Hare_Twigga wrote:

Well is states:  Remove or damage ANY tree or shrub on the land.

so it comes down to the definition of a tree

dead wood or dead tree is not a "tree" as it has no leaves , no sap and no feelings  wink

what a shame people are too scared to try and improve our currently ambiguous laws due to a fear that the resulting changes will be a worse stuff up than what we already have.


On a mission to rescue as many gold nuggets as i can before those poor souls get washed out to sea . GPX5000 smilemaker , self built highbanker and enthusiastic shovel

#56

Hare_Twigga
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Joined: 27 December 2013
Posts: 135
Member
04 February 2014 09:08 pm

Next they will make a law to stop you from digging post holes with an excavator on private property. yikes

#57

HeadsUp
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Joined: 17 April 2013
Posts: 2,624
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04 February 2014 09:21 pm

Hare_Twigga wrote:

Next they will make a law to stop you from digging post holes with an excavator on private property. yikes

true.... it might become as follows

Regulation NSW 104.666 , subrule 9564 , paragraph 12,255 :

All fence post holes must now be dug by approved wombats due to native title legislation and union regulations

and dont complain if your fence post holes are all at 45 degrees either.


On a mission to rescue as many gold nuggets as i can before those poor souls get washed out to sea . GPX5000 smilemaker , self built highbanker and enthusiastic shovel

#58

onespecSteve
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Joined: 01 January 2014
Posts: 45
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04 February 2014 09:36 pm

lol headsup


So much stuff out there waiting for us to find it.

#59

Hare_Twigga
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Joined: 27 December 2013
Posts: 135
Member
04 February 2014 09:51 pm

Haha!  I don't think we would be all that surprised the way thing's are going...

#60

PaulFritz
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Joined: 01 August 2013
Posts: 58
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28 March 2014 09:07 am

Again no response still but have emailed Rita Bentley directly to see if she is able to follow up with MBC.
Energy and Resources have changed their referenced Gazette though on the list of exempted rivers and streams. A Gazette which is 33 years after the Gazette that was first referenced.
But the new referenced Gazette. Still says that this list is for lands excepted from occupation to be permanently reserved for the use of Public purposes

1395957937_lands_reserved_for_public_purposes.jpg

#61

Pete_&_Rie
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Joined: 27 February 2014
Posts: 54
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31 March 2014 04:18 pm

Cheers guys for this very interesting topic wink

As a relatively new bloke to Vic, im keen to get the good oil on the local mining law
and it's varied "Foggy at best" interpretations that every state seems to diligently and
Purposefully provide for us good folk.

Quick Q:  Not having already read the Vic mining act, would i be correct by thinking laterally
              and assuming as in other states that panning, non mechanized sluicing, sieving, detecting
              or just generally having a look or specking for minerals inc gold comes under the heading
              of "Fossicking" and not Mining, and is therefore exempt from a great deal of the states Mining Act. ???

Every state has the same old run around when it comes to the "correct" interpretation of the Mining Law
and no doubt Vic is also hamstrung by those same antiquated land locking laws.

Having just moved over from WA i'm well up to speed on their Mining Law, and now i'm getting my teeth stuck
into the Vic Mining Act, but Geez "Mr Gov man" for once, could you not just lay the law out straight and easy
for us poor confused folk...

There goes our planned run to Crooked river for a weekend session.

Cheers in advance
Pete  cool

#62

Pete_&_Rie
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Joined: 27 February 2014
Posts: 54
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31 March 2014 04:32 pm

Cheers Paul for your updates here wink

Now to do with that 1979 Gazette you last posted mate, i'm no bloody brain
surgeon but that seems to read that the"Exemption" is only to disallow a prospector from occupying to build a
solid long term residence or hut type dwelling.. am i close in thinking that ??

And if that is the correct "interpretation' of the law, then it would be ok for part time prospectors/Fossickers
to have a little scratch at those so called "Exempted" waterways.. As long as he doesn't hurt a tree when
he rolls out his swag  yikes  lol  lol  lol

Pete

#63

PaulFritz
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Joined: 01 August 2013
Posts: 58
Member
02 April 2014 07:27 am

Pete_&_Rie wrote:

Cheers Paul for your updates here wink

Now to do with that 1979 Gazette you last posted mate, i'm no bloody brain
surgeon but that seems to read that the"Exemption" is only to disallow a prospector from occupying to build a
solid long term residence or hut type dwelling.. am i close in thinking that ??

And if that is the correct "interpretation' of the law, then it would be ok for part time prospectors/Fossickers
to have a little scratch at those so called "Exempted" waterways.. As long as he doesn't hurt a tree when
he rolls out his swag  yikes  lol  lol  lol

Pete

Hi Pete,

Yes that is my interpretation of why the exemption was set in place and so these lands and waterways could be used for "public purposes"

Paul

#64

PaulFritz
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Joined: 01 August 2013
Posts: 58
Member
02 April 2014 07:50 am

1396385395_mbc_response.jpg

#65

Goldagettin
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Joined: 05 March 2014
Posts: 219
Member
02 April 2014 08:36 am

Until reading the above I would have thought that going to a creek for a day at the most would have made me a visitor of that place. Now I find out it makes me "the occupier"......
By the same logic then, once I leave my house I am no longer "the occupier". Also when I visit a mates place I am now "the occupier"
On the up side, we no longer have homeless people in this country, they are all "occupiers" ..... It seems they will spin it anyway they want dosn't it.
Clear as mud now...

Thanks Paul for the up load.


It is said that good things come to those who wait...... I'd rather go dig em up.

#66

Goldtarget
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From: , VIC
Joined: 12 January 2014
Posts: 2,414
Member
02 April 2014 10:01 am

Some great work here, I'm glad someone is trying to get to the bottom of it. Firstly if you have direct permission from the land manager it's assumed you can enter and conduct activities in accordance with your miners right which makes perfect sense to me, as they are the"authority" assigned the task of management. Looks good and imo would hold up if in court. But looking at the above reply im still a little bemused. Now I'm not going to"occupy" in the exempted areas but my best guess is unless there it's a legal challenge on that particular interpretation we remain unable to conduct activities under or mining right. That said id be very interested to see how the legal system interrupted the word "occupy" largely because of it's original intended meaning, not the modern spin applied. One word, many places. Food for thought. If I'm fishing on the bank am i also occupying the river? Birdwatching? Swimming? Hmmm murky waters.

#67

Bazz
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Joined: 15 January 2014
Posts: 561
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02 April 2014 10:31 am

Well they say that "interpretation is the mother of all stuff ups" and if they don't say that then they should!!!!

Let me explain.....

A couple of weeks ago I was poking around a favorite little corner, deep in a valley with a permanent creek and very difficult to get too, I was turning off the main track into the scrub and 4WD coming the other way stopped me.

Turns out to be ranger Bob or something, wanted to know what I was up to and where I was going, so after the conversation which includes checking his credentials and he checking mine I turned into #1 enemy of the state........

"My interpretation of the law" he said, is that ALL the creeks in this area are on the exception list cause they eventually feed into XXXXX river.

I produced a copy of this list and asked him to explain, things cooled off a bit because he couldn't, then he informs me that it's state forest so I can't be here, so I pulled a map and the miners right guide and a map from Dept of state development showing the whole area is under an exploration lease  and a copy of the lease details, which in turn allows me to be there etc........

Ranger Bob was drawing his information from many sources including guidelines from a now defunked conservation group....(Bob Brown has a lot to answer for.)

So what did we learn that day??

A group of people will look at the same information and interpret it in totally different ways depending on their filters........so be prepared!

I thought that I was being anal by carting all these lists and maps with me and if something like this never happens again I'll be ready...... RESEARCH IS KING!!!

Cheers

Bazz


Slushie / Rocker Box

#68

casper
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From: at home on Boonwurrung country
Joined: 12 May 2013
Posts: 1,145
Member
02 April 2014 11:11 am

one of the many synomyms of "occupy" is "utilize". To my mind that fits in with the response above .....

casper


" Luck happens when Preparation meets Opportunity "

#69

Pete_&_Rie
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Joined: 27 February 2014
Posts: 54
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02 April 2014 12:39 pm

Cheers Paul, Bazz & GT.

A very muddy interpretation thats for sure, and under the Oxford Dictionary there are examples
such as "to take up or hold land in a position of ownership/control" which is not what we do
when we head for a detect or pan for the day, i'm sorry Mr "G"man but i'm just Visiting the place for the day. 

Casper i reckon your spot on the money there mate

casper wrote:

one of the many synomyms of "occupy" is "utilize". To my mind that fits in with the response above .....
casper

The only other interpretation of "Occupy" that i could find that could keep the door locked was
"To hold a space or time".

Plan A -  might ask a few of the "old mates" in WA to have a look into it, quiet a few
of them have fought and won cases against the DMP in WA.

Plan B -  OCCUPY a cold stubbie and the back verandah, and let the grey matter
unwind, after 3 hrs of reading the Act im done for haahahaha big_smile big_smile lol

Pete

Last edited by Pete_&_Rie (02 April 2014 12:46 pm)

#70

casper
Member
From: at home on Boonwurrung country
Joined: 12 May 2013
Posts: 1,145
Member
02 April 2014 02:35 pm

and another http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/occupy...

occupy (Engage), verb ~..... be active, be at work on

casper


" Luck happens when Preparation meets Opportunity "

#71

Pete_&_Rie
Member
Joined: 27 February 2014
Posts: 54
Member
02 April 2014 03:26 pm

Yup! we're screwed alright  lol  lol
Now i spose the other thing we need to worry about is
"Where exactly is the boundary edge of an exempted river etc,
would it start at the waters edge on either bank or is there a set
distance up the bank from the water thats not allowed to be Occupied/dug.

I dont mind stupid useless rules as long as the body that controls them is
unified throughout, with one and only one interpretation of those rules, at
least we'd know we're doin the right thing by the law, so we can enjoy a good
day out without "The Man" on our back.

Think i'm going to keep workin the slopes and terraces, better gold there.

#72

PaulFritz
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Joined: 01 August 2013
Posts: 58
Member
03 April 2014 10:19 am

http://thelawdictionary.org/occupation/

What is OCCUPATION?

Read in: Spanish

1. Possession; control; tenure; use. In its usual sense “occupation” is where a person exercises physical control over land. Thus, the lessee of a house is in occupation of it so long as he has the power of entering into and staying there at pleasure, and of excluding all other persons (or all except one or more specified persons) from the use of it. Occupation is therefore the same thing as actual possession. Sweet. The word “occupation,” applied to real property, is, ordinarily, equivalent to “possessionIn connection with other expressions, it may mean that the party should be living upon the premises; but, standing alone, it is satisfied by actual possession. Lawrence v. Fulton, 19 Cal. 6S3. 2. A trade; employment; profession; business; means of livelihood.

Law Dictionary: What is OCCUPATION? definition of OCCUPATION (Black's Law Dictionary)

When the Gazette was written back in 1914 the definition of occupy was (yet to be actually found) most probably not that of to be standing on a certain piece of ground.  More to the definition of not to be pegging out markers and building a dwelling and working the land.  To lay claim.
Originally these lands were "reserved from sale" so people couldn't purchase claims and work these rivers as they wanted them and subsequently reserved them for "Public Purposes".
1396480738_gazette_27th_may_1881_page_1389_lands_reserved_from_sale.jpg

Did anyone want to ad a response in the email I will send back to MBC?

#73

Illfindit
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Joined: 16 July 2016
Posts: 4
Newbie
16 July 2016 01:34 pm

To me there exempt from occupation for mining purposes , from my understanding occupation from mining means you have to occupy the land ,to occupy by law means to own or have sole occupancy), for that to happen back then , you first must , peg mark out and register a claim to that land , which entitled you to solely work that land i/e its yours for a fee , with me so far , now i thought here in vic the law was changed to within a certain distance from the creek to a certain point , NO-ONE can solely occupy or make claim to , hence being for public use and purposes hence , if i dig a hole anyone can come dig in it , and i cant do anything (its public land) hobby prospecting by law is a hobby u dont make any money from it that means i/e you cant sell the gold because if you do long story short you have just made a lease with no licence

Last edited by Illfindit (16 July 2016 01:35 pm)

#74

Illfindit
Newbie
Joined: 16 July 2016
Posts: 4
Newbie
16 July 2016 01:38 pm

Am i right or wrong can someone tell me , coz the dpi cant ! they just bring up heritage laws and water laws and sit there and fake phone calls to get me out

#75

HeadsUp
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Joined: 17 April 2013
Posts: 2,624
Member
16 July 2016 03:51 pm

Illfindit wrote:

To me there exempt from occupation for mining purposes , from my understanding occupation from mining means you have to occupy the land ,to occupy by law means to own or have sole occupancy), for that to happen back then , you first must , peg mark out and register a claim to that land , which entitled you to solely work that land i/e its yours for a fee , with me so far , now i thought here in vic the law was changed to within a certain distance from the creek to a certain point , NO-ONE can solely occupy or make claim to , hence being for public use and purposes hence , if i dig a hole anyone can come dig in it , and i cant do anything (its public land) hobby prospecting by law is a hobby u dont make any money from it that means i/e you cant sell the gold because if you do long story short you have just made a lease with no licence

My accountant got it in writing from the ATO , that any gold I find as a hobbyist can be sold and I can do anything I want with the money.

It is tax free as long as I am a hobbyist , ie I have another source of income and prospecting is not my sole income.


On a mission to rescue as many gold nuggets as i can before those poor souls get washed out to sea . GPX5000 smilemaker , self built highbanker and enthusiastic shovel

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