Is spinel ALWAYS with sapphire?

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Are the two always in the same location or has sapphire been discovered with no sign of spinel. Just watching wal n liz vids again and I'm certainly not seeing a black pebble like that at all.

If its always together it would certainly help me possibly find something in Gembrook even though the more I read about it, it seems the chances of finding a sapphire there, you have more of a chance winning the lottery...

But I've seen nothing similar to spinel yet which means I could be in the wrong place. I thought I was finding them but found out they were either seeds or baby muscles.
 
I had not found any spinel around Oberon ( Saphire Bend and Native Dog) but found saphire at both locations .
Karl
 
Not always associated with Sapphire, but very common on most of the Australian sapphire fields. Oberon and Sapphire bend including Native dog Creek, certainly have Spinel and places like Campbells River and Little river in that area have Spinel in huge abundance with stones over a centimeter round very common in the Sapphire wash. Outside of some of Queenslands Sapphire belts, Spinel is the biggest indicator that Sapphires are close bye. ;)

Wal.
 
Thanks heaps for the reply Wal. Don't know if you know Gembrook at all but its had small finds of gold, sapphire and topaz mostly. The sapphire is said to be small and broken of mixed color.

The creek(s) I'm in are at the base of a granite mountain dense in sub tropic forest and steep. I still have to venture upstream. So far I've been looking at broken granite and black sand.

Would spinel sit with black sand or is it most likely to pan out with the rock. I am using sieves but usually do a quick pan to see a sample of heavies to start with.

Have you got a clear photo of spinel or can I buy a couple?
 
Haven't worked the Gembrook area myself but am sure Spinel and to a degree tourmaline, and weathered Olivine would be associated with the sections from which the Sapphires shed. We've found small Sapphires in the Reedy Creek area and very fine Spinel is associated with the black sands of that region as well. Many of these areas are best checked with a pan, as the Spinel is that small most falls through a 1/8" sieve. The Spinel definitely sits with the black sand and has a SG very close to Sapphire.

Send my your address via PM mate and I'll send you down some free samples of what Spinel looks like. ;)

Wal.
 
Yes there is always some zircon present on those locations. There is also gold at Naive Dog Creek and very little of black sand. I don't think that there is a rules as where you can find sapphires in NSW. On other river I prospect I find small sapphires, zircon, garnets, very small rubies and gold and almost no black sand and no Spinel. Actually I would like to find some decent size Spinel, I like color and lustre.
To my way of thinking, if you are finding very small rounded Zircon together with small Saphires, the source of those is long distance away. Zircon being softer wears faster then Saphire and you finish with very small zircon stones, worn out during long travel in the creeks and rivers. Saphire being hard doesn't wear out so easy but over long time of tumbling and crashing over the rocks it probably is fractured to smaller pieces.
Karl
 
If you want some large Spinels Karl, next time you go out to Black Springs keep heading down the road towards Goulburn....about 20 minutes or so and you will cross Little River. Just before the bridge there's a small track on your right that goes a couple hundred metres over a small hill to some Sapphire workings. Try around here and you'll get some good size Spinel and far larger Sapphires than at Sapphire bend. Some of the Garnets from here are better than 50ct.

Wal.
 
I had a pan for about an hour and gem took diamonds creek no luck but a lot of black sand and looks like small smokey quarts fragments all the signs are there for gems but nothing :(
 
WalnLiz said:
If you want some large Spinels Karl, next time you go out to Black Springs keep heading down the road towards Goulburn....about 20 minutes or so and you will cross Little River. Just before the bridge there's a small track on your right that goes a couple hundred metres over a small hill to some Sapphire workings. Try around here and you'll get some good size Spinel and far larger Sapphires than at Sapphire bend. Some of the Garnets from here are better than 50ct.

Wal.
Thanks Wal, I never been there although I'm aware of that location. I will try there next time I'm around there.
Karl
 
If you want a visual view of Spinel can I suggest you have a look at Liz's You Tube Channel....Liz Kreate....and check out our vid "How and where to find Sapphires - Ancient River Wash". This vid shows very clearly what Spinel looks like. There's also a lot of prospecting vids on this channel in conjunction with her jewelery and craft vids. ;)

Wal.
 
Not on the WalnLiz Channel. It's on the Liz Kreate channel mate....a completely independent channel. The prospecting vids on her channel are not on the WalnLiz channel. ;)

Wal.
 
Just to clarify (it can be confusing), spinel is a member (mineral species) of the spinel group. These are cubic oxides of general formula AE2O4.

The spinel group can be sub-divided into three series:

Spinel series (E = Al), which includes "Spinel" MgAl2O4 (other Al varieties include hercynite, gahnite and galaxite, some of which can also be attractive)
Magnetite series (E = Fe), which includes Magnetite FeFe2O4 (ie Fe3O4)
Chromite series (E = Cr), which includes Chromite FeCr2O4

Magnetite and chromite are the main constituents of "black sand", which is therefore a mixture of spinel group minerals - magnetite is common in lava flows like basalt and chromite is common in serpentinite.

Spinel is found as a metamorphic mineral, but also as a primary mineral in mafic igneous rocks. In these mafic (dark coloured) igneous rocks (basalts. serpentinite), the magmas are relatively deficient in alkalis (Na, Ca, K) relative to aluminium Al. In contrast, light-coloured igneous rocks are high in alkalis and include granite - in which we don't get spinel or corundum.

In the igneous rocks low in alkalies relative to Al, aluminium oxide may form as the mineral corundum [which includes the gems sapphire and ruby] or may combine with magnesium (Mg) to form spinel, which when red is sometimes called "ruby spinel" or "balas ruby" (it is not truly ruby and far less valuable). This is why spinel and ruby and sapphire are often found together, often with lots of black sand.

So the source of spinel, rubies and sapphires are often things like mafic lava flows.

A bit of geological knowledge helps prospecting. For example rocks high in alkalis like granite are high in zirconium Zr, phosphorous P, beryllium Be, boron B and fluorine F (basalts and serpentinite are not), so granite areas often give gem minerals that contain these elements. such as topaz (F), zircon (Zr), emerald and aquamarine (Be) and tourmaline (B). If you are finding things like topaz and sapphire and ruby together, it is probably because the streams are draining basalt flows sitting on top of granite.

Just be careful though,the tin mineral cassiterite (SnO2) can also give you black sand and is associated with granite not basalt or serpentinite - mixtures of topaz, zircon and cassiterite are common in granite areas with no basalt or serpentinite.

You can extend this further, as a coloured gemstone is commonly a common mineral like spinel or corundum that has the bonus of extra traces of minor elements, not part of their chemical formula, such as Cr, Mn, Ni, Ti that give it colour by "doping" it (think of it more like a dye). A type of coarse-grained granite known as a complex pegmatite contains lots of Be (eg Broken Hill district) but for it to produce the gem emerald (rather than just the common mineral beryl that emerald is a green variety of) we need Cr to make it green. So we find emeralds where these pegmatitic granites have intruded serpentinites (since serpentinites are high in Ni and Cr as well as Mg). So we get emeralds near the contact between these rocks at Yalgoo in WA (the Poona emerald), where we would see weathered and pale emeralds scattered around at surface when we were exploring for nickel in the 1960s. The famous emerald fields of South Africa and Zimbabwe (eg Sandawana) occur at the contact between these two rock types. Emeralds from Columbia form a different way (by crystallizing directly into veins from salt water high in Cr and Be associated with salt deposits), and are the most prized for their lighter, finer colour.

The advantage of knowing such things is that you can find undiscovered gemfields - most known gemfields in eastern Australia have been found by gold prospectors, but since granite and basalt areas often contain no gold at all, new fields remain to be found. So it is worth panning and seiving a bit in areas of these rocks that are not in goldfields.

Hope this explains some of the observations that you guys have made here
 
Black spinel facets a nice looking stone in it's own right, especially in a checkerboard crown. Takes on a brilliant polish.

I don't know if it's always associated with sapphire but it certainly seems to be in a lot of places, as pointed out previously it shares some chemical similarities with sapphire (sapphire=aluminium oxide, black spinel=magnesium aluminium oxide).

Another stone at least sometimes associated with sapphire is pyrope garnet.
 
Thank you very much goldierocks. Mixed with what I've learnt since I first made this post and what you've just said, a lot of things have straight away started to ring bells and what a thorough explination, has helped greatly explain not so much where they are, but why. :D
 

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